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Saanen 1973

Saanen 3rd Public Dialogue 3rd August 1973.

I am sorry for this foul weather, but there it is! Shall we go on with what we were talking about yesterday? I don't think we finished it.

We were talking about human relationship. We were having a dialogue between us about human relationship. A dialogue is not a one-sided affair but both of us are taking part in the discussion, in the exploration, in the understanding together. And again, if I may point out, what we are talking about demands a serious mind, a mind that is really committed to the finding of a life, a way of living that is totally different, that has real meaning for living, and so on. So we were yesterday morning talking about human relationship, and what is involved in it, and what place has intelligence in relationship? That is what we were trying to explore together yesterday.

Most of us - I am not talking, I am just laying the cards on the table first - most of us in our relationship depend a great deal on another, depend for our physical pleasures, sexual as well as physical comfort, and also psychologically, inwardly, depend on others. What is the relationship of a human being who is not at all dependent? We are going to investigate it together, this question, because if we depend on each other psychologically, then there is the sense of possession and domination and acceptance of status quo - not wanting to change anything, a relationship in which there will be no disturbance whatsoever, each accepting the involvement, the dependency, the inward satisfaction of ownership - I own you, you own me. And is it possible for a human being not to depend at all and therefore be completely psychologically self-sufficient? And if that takes place what then is the relationship? So that is what we are discussing, talking over together this morning.

First of all let us not, if I may suggest, talk about it abstractly, as an idea, but take it actually as it is. We do depend, don't we? One depends on another psychologically - why? Please, I don't want to give a speech about it, please. Why do you, or another, depend psychologically on another? We know we depend, we have to depend on another outwardly - when the milkman brings the milk, you know the outward dependence is absolutely necessary. We are talking of inward dependence. Is one aware of this dependence? And what is involved in this dependence, and why does one depend on another inwardly? Go on, sirs. Is one aware that one is dependent psychologically? Yes? No? Let's be a little bit frank about this.

Q: (Inaudible)

K: No, we are not saying what happens if you don't depend. Are we aware, do we know, are we conscious, or cognizant, that we are dependent on somebody inwardly?

Q: (Inaudible)

K: Sir, don't you know, this is a very simple fact. Do I psychologically depend on you - for comfort, for encouragement, for sex and all the rest of it, you know, feeling that I need you, and you encourage me in my need because you also need me. Surely we are aware of this simple fact, aren't we?

All right, now let's go to the next step. Why do we have to depend, what is the drive that makes us depend on another? We are not saying it is right or wrong, we are just examining, observing. Why does one have to depend on another, what is the motive, what is the drive, what is the action that forces you to depend on somebody?

Q: I do not feel fulfilled, therefore I depend.

K: What do you mean by that word 'fulfil'?

Q: I do not feel whole.

K: You feel isolated, broken up and therefore you feel when you have a relationship of dependency that helps you to fulfil. Is that it?

Q: (Inaudible)

K: I don't know sir, we are examining. We want to know what do we mean by that word 'fulfil' - fulfil what?

Q: Pleasure.

K: I am whole depending on you? You together make each other feel whole, sane, healthy? Is that it?

Q: It seems that way.

Q: It is that way.

K: That is, by myself I am isolated, by myself I am a fragment, a small part. And to make myself whole, sane, complete, you are necessary. That is the relationship which we have accepted, in which we live, that is 'what is'. Right?

Q: It is necessary for the expansion of consciousness.

K: That is, I depend on you to make me feel whole, and that helps to expand my consciousness. Right? Does it? What do you mean 'expand your consciousness'? Sir, we are using a lot of words, throwing them out, to see if some of it is right, somewhat. Don't let us reduce this to 'Watergate'!

Q: We feel separate from our innermost self.

K: Let's be simple about this. I'll go into it, step by step.

I depend on you for various reasons. And I am aware that I depend. Now I am asking myself why is it that I accept this dependence. I don't say it is right or wrong, it's beautiful, ugly, or this or that. I say, what is it that makes me depend, what is the motive?

Q: Fear.

K: Is it fear, is it expansion of consciousness - whatever that may mean - is it a sense of insufficiency therefore I need you to make me feel sufficient? I am just asking, madam, step by step. Then what is it?

Q: Desire.

K: Then what is it? Sir, do you know you depend on somebody - on your wife, husband, girl, boy, whatever it is, do you know, are you aware that you are dependent?

Q: Yes.

K: Yes. Why? Ask yourself, don't explain, find out why are you dependent.

Q: If you know you depend, you know you depend. The difficulty is to verbalize what you feel.

K: Sir, what is the difficulty in this: I depend on you because I am lonely, I am insufficient, I am frightened, I need a companion, I need to hold somebody's hand, I need you to love me because I don't know what love is, I am asking out of my emptiness that I be loved, and so on and on. Right? Now all that makes me depend on you. Then what happens in the process of this dependency? I know why I depend on you. I have found all the motives. Now what is the result of this, or results, of this dependency?

Q: How can you know that you have found all the motives?

K: Oh, no I don't have to go into all the motives. I am taking some of them, sir, that's good enough. I take some of them, at least one is enough for me because if I understand one motive completely the rest I have understood. I don't have to collect all the motives and then discuss what they are, and dispute, this is not enough, that is enough - one motive is enough. I am lonely. I'll take that. And out of that loneliness in which is involved, "I must be loved, I need to be loved and I am afraid, I have a sense of emptiness, I have no meaning in life, by your companionship, by my dependence on you I feel I am becoming whole." That's enough. Now what is the sequence of this dependency? You understand, sir? Psychologically I am frightened and to assuage that fear, to allay that fear I must have a belief in something, and that gives me great comfort. Similarly I depend on you, what are the consequences of that dependency?

Q: Conformity.

K: Haven't you noticed that you are dependent? And don't you notice what the next thing is? I must possess you, you must be mine - legally, morally, physically, I must have you round me. I can't afford to lose you because in myself I am lonely, desperate, therefore I must possess you - no? So it is legalized in heaven and I marry you. And in that possessiveness what goes on?

Q: Fear grows.

K: Obviously. I must possess you because I am lonely and I am afraid to lose you, therefore I safeguard my possession. You are following all this? For god's sake, it is so simple. I possess you, therefore I must safeguard, you are mine: you are my wife, my girl, and therefore in that possession, in that possessiveness I am afraid to lose you, I am anxious, I become angry. No? Violent. And I ensure that I don't lose you, by legal marriage, vows, by all kinds of stratagems to hold you - I flatter you, play with you, yield to you. Don't you know all this?

Q: I don't find it like that.

K: You may be the exception, madam, I am talking of the average person, all of us.

So what takes place in this relationship in which I depend on you, I possess you, what takes place actually?

Q: Conflict.

K: Obviously, conflict. Conflict, division - I go off to the office, there I am ambitious, greedy, envious, all that, I am isolating myself, and also I am isolated with my wife. So I have now an image which I have created about her and she has created about me, and our relationship is between these two images. Right. Let's move. Let's proceed.

Then what happens in our life? Dependency, possession, jealousy, anxiety, fear, violence, the demand of more and more pleasure, sex and so on and so on. And that's what we call relationship. Right? And that is what we call love. Now why does the mind, feeling so completely lonely, why can't it resolve that loneliness and not proceed to be attached to something? You follow?

Q: (Inaudible)

K: Look: I am lonely. You know what that means, don't you. I am lonely. What would happen if I resolved that loneliness? Would I depend on you psychologically, and all the sequence of all that dependency? So my question is: is it possible for the mind to understand this loneliness, not verbally but actually deal with this loneliness, go beyond it and find out then what is relationship? You understand? Now is it possible for the human mind, which feels so empty and therefore depends, so lonely, and therefore asks to be loved, can that loneliness ever be filled? We do it. We actually do it. With the image of you I try to fill it, with the image of the religious figures, with politics, with every kind of activity to try to cover it up, or run away from it. Right? Now I won't run away from it because it is stupid. Now I have got this loneliness, I can't move away from it, so what am I to do? Please, discuss with me. What am I to do, what is the mind to do with this loneliness which it feels?

Q: One should not escape from it.

K: Why not, sir? When you say, "I should not", it means you are. No?

Q: Try and resolve this loneliness.

K: Who is to resolve it?

Q: Do my best.

K: Who is 'me' to do my best? Sir, please do give a little attention to this. One feels terribly lonely. This loneliness means isolation, doesn't it? Complete non-relationship, no relationship with nature, no relationship with human beings. I may have - the mind may have relationship with ideas, that is very easy. So what am I to do - what is the mind to do with this loneliness? Observe it, go beyond it, try to fill it?

Q: Resolve it.

K: I have it, it is there! Now wait a minute. What has brought about this sense of loneliness? You understand? What has caused it, how has it come about?

Q: Lack of love.

Q: Thought.

Q: Isolation is the law of nature.

K: Is it? This is a new idea! Sir, look, I want to find out how this sense of loneliness comes into being. Is the mind creating it, or the culture has created it, the environment and so on? How had it come about? May I go into a little bit, will you just listen?

When I am ambitious, I am isolating myself. No? When I am competitive, I am isolating myself; when I want to be superior to you, I am isolating myself; when I am seeking, pursuing pleasure, I am isolating myself. I don't know if you see all this. Right? So this loneliness is a form of isolation which the mind has cultivated through ambition, through competition, through the desire for success, through the pursuit of pleasure, and this has brought about this sense of complete isolation, loneliness. Right? What do you say?

Q: It is very difficult.

K: There it is sir, it is not difficult to understand the reason. I am pointing out how this loneliness takes place. If I don't understand the reason for this loneliness, merely to escape from it, merely to cover it up, merely try to fill it, has no meaning, therefore I must see how this has come about. And I see ambition has made this - obviously. I am ambitious in the factory, in the office, and I am not ambitious at home - there I am very affectionate, friendly with my children, wife, but I am ambitious outside. So you see what is taking place: so gradually I am isolating myself all the time.

Q: What is the reaction which creates this loneliness. Each reaction varies according to each person, and what is the reason, the basis of this reaction?

K: Is it not partly our conditioning, partly our culture, partly education, and all the attractions of modern civilization. So, sir, I see the reason, the cause of this loneliness, the struggle, the competitive spirit, the desire to be greater, to become something, all those are activities of isolation. I am not aware of those activities but I am aware of my loneliness. Then I try to do something about that loneliness, not about the cause that has brought this about, but I say, "It is terrible to be so lonely". So I escape. The escapes are an illusion from 'what is' because I have not found out the cause of it. When I discover the cause of it then what am I to do? You understand sir? Please go with me a little bit.

What am I to do, living in this world, having to earn a livelihood, which means clothes, food and shelter, and leisure, what am I to do, knowing the cause of this loneliness, which is, let us say, ambition, competitive spirit, how am I to live without ambition, without this competition in this world? Come on sirs, this is your life.

Q: (Inaudible)

K: Yes, sir, I have pointed that out. What am I to do sir?

Q: Say you don't know.

K: No, madam, you haven't understood.

Q: What is the quality of seriousness?

K: Sir, I am asking something, you answer something else. I am asking how am I to live in this world, earn a livelihood and yet not be ambitious, not be competitive, not conform? How am I to live because I feel terribly lonely and I see that loneliness has been brought about by competition, ambition and so on. That is the structure of society in which I live, that is the culture, what am I to do?

Q: I must see my real needs.

K: Not 'must', sir. Then you are talking of ideas. Have you solved the problem of ambition by having your needs? I need four pairs of trousers, half a dozen shirts, and half a dozen shoes, or whatever it is - I need. But I am still ambitious. Move away!

Q: How am I to change my action?

K: I am going to show it to you. Have a little patience, go with the speaker step by step, you will find out for yourself. Look sir, I am going to repeat the question again. I am lonely, this loneliness has been brought about by self-centred activity, and that self-centred activity - one of its forms is ambition, greed, envy, competitiveness, imitation. I have to live in this society which makes me conform, be ambitious, encourage hypocrisy and all the rest of it. How am I to learn a livelihood and yet not be ambitious, because ambition is a form of isolation? I am lonely - you understand - therefore how am I to live without ambition in this world? And all of you are ambitious.

Q: Live alone.

K: I can't live alone - I need food, somebody has to give me food, somebody has to give me clothes.

Q: (Inaudible)

K: Partly, sir, but tell me what to do.

Q: Give all you mind and energy to understand it.

K: I give up! You don't apply, you don't say, look, am I ambitious - I am ambitious in ten different ways - spiritually, psychologically, physically, and so on, I am ambitious. I have created this society through ambition, and that ambition has brought about this sense of isolation, which is loneliness, and I have to live in this world, and I don't want to be lonely. It doesn't mean anything. Therefore I am asking, how am I to live in this world without ambition, live amongst you who are ambitious and I don't want to be ambitious, how am I to live with you?

Q: (Inaudible)

K: Don't you know the danger of ambition?

Q: (Inaudible)

K: This is such a lovely world!

Q: (Inaudible)

K: I am showing you that you are ambitious. You don't face that question, you go all round it.

Q: What is ambition?

K: Sir, what is ambitious - trying to be something other than what you are. Just listen. I have said ambition is to transform what you are into something which you are not. That is one part of ambition. Ambition is try to achieve something which you think is desirable, something which you think will give you power, position, prestige. Ambition is to write something and hope that it will sell a million copies, and so on and on and on. And that is the society in which I am forced to live. And I realize that has brought loneliness to me, and I see how tremendously destructive this loneliness is because it prevents my relationship with another. So I see the destructive nature of it, then what am I to do?

Q: Find a person who is not ambitious.

K: Aren't you ambitious, have I to go out and find somebody else. What are you all talking about. This is not serious. Sorry, I must go on.

I am asking myself: I am lonely - ambition, greed, competition has brought about this loneliness, and I see the destructive nature of this loneliness; it prevents really affection, care, love and to me that is tremendously important. Loneliness is terrible, it is really destructive, it is poisonous. Now how am I - please listen - how am I to live with you who are ambitious, because I have to live with you, I have to earn my livelihood - what am I to do?

Q: (Inaudible)

K: You don't understand. I am boiling. You understand, sir. I am passionate to understand this problem. It is burning me up, because that is my whole life and you are playing with it. I am lonely, desperate, and I see how destructive it is, and I want to resolve it, and yet I have to live with you, live with this world which is ambitious, greedy, violent, what am I to do? I will show you. But showing is not the same thing as you doing it. I'll show it.

Can I live in a world that is tremendously ambitious, and therefore deceitful, dishonest? Now how am I to live there, in that world, because I don't want to be ambitious, I see what the result of ambition is - loneliness, despair, ugliness, violence and all the rest of it. Now I say to myself, how am I to live with you who are ambitious? So I say to myself, am I ambitious? Right? Am I ambitious - not somebody else, not the world, because the world is me, I am the world, and that's to me a burning reality, not just a phrase. So am I ambitious? Now I am going to learn. You understand, sir? I am going to observe, learn and find out if I am ambitious, not just in one direction, my whole life. Right? Not the ambitions to have a bigger house only, the ambition to be successful, the ambition to achieve a result, money, and also ambitious to achieve or transform 'what is' into the perfect state. I am ugly and I want to transform that into the most beautiful state. All that and more is ambition. And I watch it. I am going to watch it, that's my life, you understand, sir, I am going to watch it with passion, not just sit down and discuss it. I am watching it night and day, because I know, I have realized the truth that loneliness is the most terrible thing because it is most destructive in relationship. And human beings cannot live by themselves, life is relationship. Life is action in that relationship. If in that relationship there is isolation there is total inaction. I realize that, not verbally, but, you know, a burning reality. Now I am watching. Am I ambitious to transform 'what is' into 'what should be', the ideal? You understand? That's a form of ambition to change what I am into what I should be. Right? Am I doing that? That is you, are you doing that? When I say 'I', I am talking about you. Don't just escape. I am talking about you when I talk about me, because you are me. Because you are the world and I am part of that world.

So I watch. And I say, yes, I want to change 'what is' into 'what should be'. And I realize how absurd that is. It is a part of ambition given to my by education, culture, tradition, in the school - 'A' is better than 'B', copy 'A' - you know all that business. The religions have said, change from what you are to what you should be. So I realize that, the falseness of it, and I totally discard it. Right? You understand what 'discard it' means? I will not touch it. So I accept 'what is'. Wait a minute. I see 'what is', and I see 'what is' isn't good enough. Right? So how am I to transform it without the ambition of changing it into something? Are you following all this? I know you will, but later on when I ask you, you will...

Now I see what it is, I am greedy. I don't want to transform it into non-greed. I am violent; I don't want to transform it into non-violence. But that violence must undergo a radical change. Now what am I to do with it? You are following all this? What am I to do, what is my mind, which has been trained, educated, disciplined to be ambitious, violent, and I realize to change that into something else is still violence, so I won't proceed along those lines. And I am left with 'what is', which is violence. So what takes place? How am I to observe it, how is the mind to observe it without wanting to change it? You understand what I am saying? Leave it there for the moment.

How is the mind to change this educated, sophisticated ambition, give it complete change so that there is not a breath of ambition? And I watch it, I observe it, all day. All day I am watching how my ambition is active. Because I am very serious, because the loneliness is a terrible thing in relationship, and man can't live without relationship. He may pretend, he may say, "I love you", and fight each other. So how is the mind to transform totally the thing called ambition? Any form of exercise of will is still ambition. Right? I am observing. All this is observation. I see any form of exercise of will to transform 'what is', violence or ambition, is another form of ambition. Right? I have discovered that. So the discovery of it has given me energy, so I can discard will. The mind says, no, that is finished, I will never under any circumstances exercise will - because that is part of ambition.

And I see conformity is one of the educated reactions of the culture in which I live - conform, long hair, short hair, short trousers, short skirt - conform, outwardly and inwardly conform; become a Buddhist, a Catholic, a Muslim, conform. And I have been taught from childhood to conform. In the class I am made to conform - 'A' is better than you, you must be like 'A', get better marks than 'A'. Right? So I am forced, educated, compelled to conform. What takes place when I conform? What takes place, sir, when you conform?

Q: You...

K: No, what takes place when you are conforming? Struggle, isn't there, conflict - I am this, and you want me to be that. So there is conflict, there is the loss of energy, there is fear that I am not what you expect me to be. So conformity, will, desire to change 'what is' is all part of ambition. I am observing this. So during the day I observe and I say, "I will not conform" - I understand what conformity is. I am conforming when I put on trousers. I am conforming when I keep to the left side of the road, or the right side of the road. I am conforming when I learn a language. I conform when I shake hands - in India they don't shake hands, they do something else. So I am conforming in a certain direction, at certain levels, and at other levels I am not conforming - because that is part of isolation. So what has happened? What has happened to the mind that has observed the activities of ambition - conformity, will, the desire to change 'what is' into 'what should be', and so on, those are all the activities of ambition, which has produced this sense of desperate loneliness. So all kind of neurotic activities take place. And as I have observed it, watched it, without doing a thing about it, then out of that observation the activity of ambition has come to an end because the mind has become extraordinarily sensitive to ambition. It is like it cannot tolerate ambition, therefore becoming very sensitive it has become extraordinarily intelligent. Therefore it says, "How am I to live in this world being highly sensitive, intelligent, therefore no ambition?" Right? Are you following all this, or am I just talking to myself?

How am I to live with you who are ambition? Have we any relationship with each other? You are ambitious, and I am not. Or you are not, I am - it doesn't matter which way. What is our relationship? Come on sirs.

Q: There is no relationship.

K: Therefore what am I to do? And yet I realize living is relationship. Follow this, sir, carefully. You understand my question. You are ambitious, and perhaps I am not. And I see we have no relationship because you are going that way and I am going there, or I am stationary and you are moving away. What is our relationship? And yet I cannot live by myself. You understand, sir?

Q: (Inaudible)

K: Wait, wait. Look at, look at it, absorb it, smell it, taste it, and then you will answer it. What am I to do living in this world, the world which is made up of ambition, greed, hypocrisy, violence, trying to change this into that, you know all the things they are doing in the churches, you know all that is happening. And I see that all leads to loneliness and that destroys relationship, and you are ambitious, and perhaps I am not, then what takes place?

Q: It is an impossible situation.

K: It is not. I am going to show it to you.

Q: (Inaudible)

K: Look, I have far beyond all that: if I should, when, must - all suppositions. I have gone beyond all that. I have come to the point, the mind has come to the point when it has to face a crowd, a civilization, a world in which ambition is rampant, the poison of ambition is rampant. And this mind will not tolerate both medically, psychologically and physically any form of ambition, and yet it has to live here. Right? What is it to do?

Q: (Inaudible)

K: Sir, here you are, look you are sitting there, I am sitting here. I am asking you. You are ambitious - all right, I'll say, I am ambitious, you are not ambitious, what is our relationship?

Q: There is no relationship.

K: There is no relationship, what takes place?

Q: Complete isolation.

K: Wait, wait. He says, complete isolation. Go into it, sir, look into it a bit more. This mind is not ambitious, that mind is ambitious. This mind, is it isolated because it has no relationship with you who are ambitious? Don't answer it because you haven't eaten this food.

Q: I don't know.

K: That's it. Find out. You have missed the point, sir, which is: when the mind has observed the activity of ambition - conformity, the exercise of will, changing, and so on and so on - when the mind has observed all this and seen the falseness of it and therefore the truth of it - to see the falseness you need a good observing mind, a mind that is sensitive, a mind that has to follow swiftly the movement of ambition. So the mind becomes very sensitive to see all the currents of ambition. Therefore the mind is intelligent. Right? The mind has become intelligent in the sense that through observation of ambition, the current of ambition, the subtleties of ambition, the hidden, all that, the mind has become extraordinarily alert to ambition, and realizes ambition is poison. Therefore the mind being highly sensitive to ambition, therefore watchful of ambition, and therefore intelligent, has to live with you. It has got to live with you, it can't isolate itself. Right? Because it sees isolation has brought this mess about. Now how is it to live with you? You are going that way, and the non-ambitious person may not be going that way, or going in any direction.

Such a mind is not isolated, is it? You understand, sir? Isolation takes place, which is loneliness, when there are all the activities of ambition. When there are no activities of ambition there is no loneliness.

Q: (Inaudible)

K: Look, sir. The activities of ambition have produced loneliness. Right? We said that, you saw that.

Q: (Inaudible)

K: Sir, I took one example of the cause of loneliness. If I understand one cause of loneliness I have understood all the other causes. Because all the other causes are included in this one cause, because in this one cause is included conformity, in this one cause is included will, wanting to change this to that in order to become something, in order to be something - greater, nobler, wiser, more rich, more etc., etc. - all that I discover in this one act of ambition.

Q: Sometimes I feel very serious about what you are saying...

K: Not what I am saying.

Q: I recognize it as truth but yet loneliness still goes on.

K: Because sir, I'll show you why. I understand it very well, sir. You say, I have understood what you are talking about, ambition, but yet loneliness goes on, why. Because - just listen, sir, please just listen - you have translated what I have said into an idea, haven't you. I'll show it to you in a minute. I say to you, ambition with all its activities is the cause of loneliness. Wait, wait. I say that to you. What do you do with that statement?

Q: I see that...

K: Do listen to this. Please listen to this, sir. I make a statement that ambition has brought about loneliness.

Q: How?

K: I have explained it, madam, ten times, don't say, 'how' now. I say that to you, how do you translate that, how do you listen to that, what takes place in your mind?

Q: (Inaudible)

K: Now sir. Sir, listen, sir. I say to you verbally and non-verbally that the activities of ambition, which I have explained, have produced this sense of desperate loneliness, the pain of it. You listen to that because you understand English somewhat, and you listen to that. What takes place after you have listened to that? Is it an idea? You say, yes, intellectually I understand, verbally it is very clear. So you have not seen the truth of it but have understood verbally the statement. You haven't felt the depth of that statement but you have caught the meaning of the word only, and hence you are still feeling lonely. And that's what we do. We translate what we hear into an abstraction as an idea to be carried out.

Q: We don't know anything else to do.

K: I am showing it to you, what to do. Don't translate into an idea, just listen. I say to you, it is an awful day, and you translate it as - a terrible day, I can't do this, I can't do that, I have no clothes. You follow? You translate what I have said into an action. You haven't listened. You understand, sir? So I say, just listen first, the action will come later. But first listen. Don't say, what am I to do? "What to do" is an idea. Right?

So I am saying to you the activities of ambition, there are many forms of it, has brought about this pain of loneliness. You listen to that statement intellectually, verbally, you don't listen passionately. Right? You don't say, "My god, I must solve this problem". You say, "Well, very nice, I will go on my way of being ambitious. It poisons me, but I don't mind." But I do mind; to me it is an appalling thing to be ambitious, I have realized it, and I see the ugliness of it, the falseness of it, not verbally but actually. Therefore what takes place? It is like seeing a precipice which is not an abstraction, and when I see a precipice I move away from it - if I am sane. And I see the activities of ambition, and I move away completely from it. Now, wait. Then am I lonely? Of course not. Therefore I am self-sufficient. You understand? My relationship with you then is a man who is self-sufficient and you are not, therefore you are going to exploit me. Right? You are going to use me, because you are going to use me to satisfy yourself, and I say, 'Look, don't do it, it is a waste of time.' So - if I may put it, listen carefully - relationship based on loneliness is one thing. Right? Relationship based on non-loneliness, complete self-sufficiency is another. You understand, sir?

Now, sir, let's finish this. We have come to a marvellous point. Relationship born out of loneliness leads to great misery. Just listen to it. Don't say, "I must live that way" - it's like smelling a flower, just smell it, sir, you can't do anything about it, but you can't create a flower you can only destroy it. Therefore just smell it, look at it, the beauty of it, the petals, the delicacy, the extraordinary quality of gentleness, you know what a flower is. In the same way just look at it, listen to it. Relationship born out of loneliness is one thing. Relationship born out of non-loneliness, therefore complete self-sufficiency is another. Relationship out of loneliness leads to conflict, misery, divorce, fight, wrangles, sexual insufficiency - you are sexual, I am not, you know all that ugliness that goes on, or the beauty or whatever you like to call it. Out of that loneliness all the misery comes, in relationship. Then what takes place when there is no loneliness, when there is complete self-sufficiency, no dependency? Right? You understand? When there is no dependency what takes place? I love you, you may not love me, I love you - that's good enough. You understand? I don't want your response that you love me also, I don't care. Like the flower it is there for you to look at it, to smell, see the beauty of it, it doesn't say, 'Love me' - it is there. Therefore it is related to everything. You understand? Oh, for god's sake get this. And in that self-sufficient - not in the ugly sense of sufficient, in the great, depth and the beauty of sufficiency - in which there is no loneliness, no ambition, that is really love, therefore love has relationship with nature, if you want it, there it is, if you don't want it, it doesn't matter. That's the beauty of it.


Saanen 1973

Saanen 3rd Public Dialogue 3rd August 1973.

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