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1978

Madras 1978

Madras 3rd Public Dialogue 3rd January 1978

Could we this morning take one problem, or one issue, and work it out in great detail completely and fully; not just hear what the speaker has to say, but together take one issue, whatever it is, in our daily life and go into it step by step deeply and sanely. Could we do that this morning? You understand my question? What would you like to take as an intimate problem of one's life that you would like to talk over with each other and find a complete and total answer for it? So would you kindly say what kind of thing you would like to go into freely. What would you like to talk over together?

Q: Sir, there is an intellectual understanding of all that you are talking about but there is no fundamental understanding therefore it doesn't produce a transformation of my life. Could you please go into that question.

K: The questioner says, intellectually - I think he means really verbally - we understand more or less what you are saying, logically, reasonably, and fairly sanely, what you are saying. But after hearing you somehow we don't seem to be able to go very deeply into ourselves and transform ourselves completely. That's the question. Would you like to go into that question?

Q: (Inaudible)

K: Oh, for goodness sake, they are just words to you. Haven't you got a problem? Haven't you got a problem, sir, daily life problem?

Q: All of us are oppressed.

K: We are oppressed, is that it?

Q: Yes, sir.

K: By society, by our friends, by your wife, by your husband, by your culture, you feel totally oppressed. Is that a problem? Or something to talk about? Please, as this is the last discussion, or dialogue, please don't waste your time and my time in talking about something that doesn't affect your life at all.

Q: Can you teach us about the wholeness you speak of in daily life?

K: Yes, not teach you but I will go into it. The question is, is it possible in our daily life to live a whole, complete full life. The word 'whole' means healthy, first; healthy body, healthy mind. Then it also means sanity; a sane mind, a mind that is capable of reasoning logically, objectively and so with clarity and therefore sanity. The word 'whole' means also holy, h-o-l-y. All this is implied in that word 'whole'. And the gentleman wants to know how to live a life that is whole.

Now which do you want to discuss? Which is the real problem to you, sir, not what I say to you, or you accept what I say, but an actual daily problem in your life.

Q: I have one such problem, sir. Irritation. I am easily irritated.

K: I am losing my temper and irritated. I am glad you get irritated!

So what shall we discuss?

Q: We should take the first question: we understand what you say intellectually.

K: Shall we go into that.

Q: Everything is covered in that.

K: Everything is covered in that question. So shall we go into that? We understand what you are talking about, intellectually or verbally, but somehow it doesn't seem to affect us very deeply. Somehow it doesn't penetrate widely and deeply our entire life. That's the question. So we are going to discuss that, talk it over together.

When you say, we understand what you are talking about intellectually, is that a fact?

Q: Not for me. I would like you to say something in a definitional sense about the words you use, brain and mind and consciousness. You use those three words and I would like you to say something about the words brain and mind.

K: I will, sir. This is what we are discussing now, we will go into it perhaps. I am asking, if I may, when you says, we understand you intellectually, verbally, what do you mean by that. Are you understanding me, the speaker, what he is saying, or are you trying to understand yourself, using the speaker as a mirror in which you are seeing yourself? Do you understand the difference? Right, sir? Which is it you are doing? Are you trying to understand what the speaker is saying, or are you perceiving yourself, seeing yourself in the mirror which the speaker is putting before you? Which is it you are doing? Understanding the speaker, or understanding yourself by seeing in the mirror which he puts before you? This is a simple question, so don't complicate it. So which is it we are doing?

Q: We try to apply what K is saying.

K: Yes, we are trying to apply what is being said. Do you know what he is saying? Before you apply something the speaker is saying, do you know what he is saying? He is saying, look at yourself. Use the speaker as a mirror, and then look at yourself. Right? That's what he is saying. Have we understood? Look at yourself. Do you see yourself, or do you see the picture that the speaker is painting? Do you understand my question, sir? Which is it that you are doing? Are you seeing yourself as you are, or are you trying to understand something the speaker is saying, therefore it becomes intellectual. I think this is a fairly simple question, and please answer it. Which is it that we are doing? If you are hungry, any amount of description of food will not satisfy you. Right? So are you hungry, or are you merely satisfied with the description of food, because you have already eaten?

Q: I am really hungry.

K: So you are really hungry, you want some food: who is going to supply you the food? Metaphorically speaking, I am not giving you food, you are not hungry, but in a different sense. Who is giving you the food that you want?

Q: (Inaudible)

K: No, don't just casually answer this, sir, go into it. You are saying, I am hungry and I want some food that will appease the hunger. Now wait a minute. Appease the hunger. Are you hungry intellectually, deep down, are you hungry? No?

Q: Yes, sir.

K: And from whom are you going to get the food? From the guru? From your books? From your culture? From some politician? Where are you going to get the food?

Q: From everybody I have ever seen.

K: I know, sir, you say that very casually. Is that a fact that you are really hungry, not in the physical sense, that you are really hungry and you want that hunger to be appeased and you don't mind getting it from anybody. Right?

Q: From everybody I have ever seen.

K: Yes, from everybody, anybody - from your wife, will you get it? You are all so casual.

Q: I am looking...

K: Wait, sir, we will go into it. First of all, let's be very clear what we are talking about. You are searching. Right? You are searching, you go from guru to guru, from temple to temple, or from philosopher to philosopher, and you happen to come here this morning and say, 'Please help us in ourselves to find truth'. Right? Is that right? Are you quite sure? So first of all, are you clear what you are searching for? Are you searching for satisfaction? Are you searching to escape from this dreadful life, monotonous, stagnating, dull, boring life, and so you want an escape, a drug? When you say, I am searching, and we are asking, what is it you are seeking? Happiness?

Q: Yes.

Q: Contentment.

K: Contentment.

Q: Peace.

K: Yes, sir I can supply all the words and you will all agree. So what is it, you want all this: happiness, contentment, peace, love - what?

Q: Everything.

K: Everything. Are you capable of receiving everything?

Q: Order, sir.

K: I said, are you capable of receiving everything that you want.

Q: No, sir.

K: No, sir you have not even understood my question. Your capacity is very small, it's like going to the well with a small pitcher.

Q: Sir, I want to...

K: Just a minute, sir, be good enough to listen to what the speaker is saying, have the courtesy to listen first. You might go the well with a small pitcher, and be satisfied what you collect in that little pitcher. Is that what you want?

Q: I need a vessel that will hold everything I hold.

K: Sir, you haven't even listen to what I am saying. If you are seeking everything, that is, happiness, contentment, enlightenment, wisdom, ending of fear and so on, you must have a vessel that can contain the enormity of life.

Q: I...

K: Sir, sir. Is this the first time you are here, sir?

Q: Yes.

K: Oh, then that explains it. Good enough sir. Is this the first time that you are all here? Please have the goodness to listen. I am asking, if I may, what is it you are seeking. It's no good saying, everything. Are you seeking contentment?

Q: Yes, sir.

K: Are you seeking contentment?

Q: We don't know what we are seeking.

K: Yes, sir, I am taking one example, one factor, let's go into it, sir, and then spread it out. Are you seeking contentment? Would you kindly answer.

Q: Sir I think it is...

K: Sir, are you seeking contentment? If one could go into that one question, that will perhaps open a great deal. But you won't even go into that. Are you asking, because I am discontented, unhappy, I find no satisfaction in anything, so I am greatly discontented, disturbed, and I would like to be free from that disturbance, from that dissatisfaction, insufficiency, and find some place, or somewhere where I can be completely contented. Is that what you want? Go on, sirs. Is that what you want?

Q: Yes, it is.

K: Right sir?

Q: We want to know what we are.

K: One of the factors of what you are is discontent. Right? One of the factors. Through one factor, the understanding of one factor, and opening, going into it very deeply we may cover the whole field. You understand, sir? So if you will kindly find out for yourself whether you are so discontented with life, with your job, with your environment, with your culture, with everything, discontented. Discontent. Are you? With your guru, with your religion, with your Vedas, with your Upanishads, with your politics, your economic environment, and so on, discontented with everything that you have about you? Is that a fact?

Q: Yes, sir it is a fact.

K: To you? Right. So you want to find a way out of this discontent. Right? Now please listen, first listen. Who is going to help you out of this? You have tried the Vedas, you have tried the Upanishads, you have tried the gurus, you have tried puja, you have tried god knows what, and you are not out of it. Right? Are you? Are you out of it? Be honest to yourself, I don't want your agreement, nodding your head, but be honest to yourself. You have tried so many things and you say, I cannot find contentment, and therefore I am burning with discontent; please help each other to see if it is possible to be free of this discontent. Right? So it is a legitimate question to ask you. Do you know the meaning of that word 'discontent'? Discontent with something - please listen - with something, with my husband, with my wife, with my girl friend, discontent with something; or is there discontent by itself? You understand my question, sir? Which is it? I may be discontent in the house I am living in because I want a larger house, I may be discontent with my wife, who is dull, a bore, or my husband. I am discontent with that. I am discontent with my job and I want a better job. I am discontent with what I am - my ugliness, my pettiness, my brutality. Which is it? You understand? Discontent, being discontent, dissatisfied with something and is there a discontentment in itself. You understand? You have understood my question, sir? Now which is it?

Q: I am discontent.

K: You are discontent not about something, but it is a flame that is burning in you, not fed by another, by faggots or wood of not having this, not having that, wanting more, wanting less. So you find that there is a discontent by itself. Is that so?

Q: It is not a fact, sir. It is discontentment with something.

K: That's all. I understand, sir. So let's be very clear that you are discontent with something. Right? Right, sir? With my relationship, I am not good at exams, I am not this, so you are discontented with something. Now what is it that you are discontented with? Then if you know what you are discontented with then we can proceed, we can go into it. But if you casually say, I am discontent, it means nothing. Do you want - please listen - do you want that discontent smothered, put down, - die down, let it wither away? Or do you want that discontent which is like a flame to burn, to burn everything round out? You understand my question? Which is it you want: to suppress that discontent, to hold it down, to put a lid on it, to run away from it; or do you want that discontent to keep on burning? Why shouldn't you be discontent? Is it a good thing to be discontent? No? Yes. So it is good to be discontent. Right? With what? With your husband? With your children? With your society? With your culture? With your tradition? With your government? Or, dissatisfied in yourself, what you are - petty, small, narrow minded, ugly, quarrelsome, jealous, anxious. Which is it: discontented with things outside, house, husband, or discontented in yourself with regard to what you are?

Q: With what I am, sir.

K: You are discontented - please listen, sir - you are discontented with what you are. Right? Is that it? Not with husband, wife, society, the world outside you. Please. So you are discontented with yourself. Right? Would that be right, sir?

Q: Only rarely am I discontented with myself.

K: So we will accept that: you are very rarely discontented with yourself, what you are. Mostly we are discontented about the world outside of us. Now just a minute, just a minute, go slowly. Is the outside different from you? You understand? The society which you have created - the society which is around you, are you not the product of that society? Are you not the product of the culture? Are you not the product of your tradition? Of your economic condition? So you are the outside, which you think is separate from you. Right? So don't divide the world and the 'me'. You understand? You are the world. Right? Because you are the result of your society, your are the result of your conditioning, you are the result of your tradition, you are the result of your father, mother, who believe and so on and on. All that is the outside world, and that outside world has made you. Right? So you are the outside world. Right, sir? Not only logically but factually, it is so. Right? So don't divide, saying, I am different from the world, I am dissatisfied with myself and not with the world. You understand the question? So you are dissatisfied not only with the world but what the world has made you. At last, it takes such a long time. Right? So you are the world. Right? Right, lady? So the world is you, so you can't say I am not dissatisfied with the world but only with myself. When you are dissatisfied with yourself you are dissatisfied with the world: the culture, the religion, the puja, the house, you follow. Right? So you are discontented with what you are, which is the world. Right, sir? Right?

Q: I am unable to see that.

K: You are unable to see that. All right, sir. Aren't you conditioned by the religion in which you have been brought up? Right? And that religion has been passed from father to son, to son, to son. Generations of superstition. Right? So you are the result of that superstition. Right?

Q: And education.

K: I said, that, education, superstition, the culture, the Vedas, the books, you are the result of all that. So you are discontented with yourself therefore you are discontented with the world. So you are the world. Right? Don't say, yes, until you really understand it, even verbally. A Christian is conditioned by the propaganda of two thousand years, as you are conditioned by propaganda of five thousand years or more. Right? So you are the result of that propaganda. Obviously, lady, don't take time. So when you say you are discontented, you are discontented with the world, which is you. Got it?

Now, let's proceed from there. So you are the world and the world is you, and you are discontented with everything that the world has put together. Right? So to what depth is this discontent? Is it just superficial? You understand? Just under the skin, or does it go very deep?

Q: It is rather superficial.

K: So you say it is rather superficial. Right?

Q: No.

K: With you it is not, so I am going slowly, we will go into it slowly, have a little patience. How is it that you are so bright? This discontent, someone says, is rather superficial. Why is it superficial? Please go into it, sir. Why is it superficial? When you say, superficial, it is on the surface - the word 'superficial' is on the surface. Why is it on the surface? Go into it a little bit. You see poverty round you, people deprived of everything, degradation of poverty, you see this round you, dirt, squalor, misery, confusion. So how can you see all that and say, 'It's all very superficial'? Or is it that you are not - forgive me, I am just suggesting - that you are not sensitive. Right? You are not sensitive. Now what do you mean by that word 'sensitive'? One is sensitive to one's own feelings. Are you following this? One is sensitive to one's own desires. One is sensitive to one's own demands, longings, loneliness, to oneself. Which means you are so self-centred that you are not sensitive to the beauty of the trees, you are not sensitive to the beauty of the sky, you are not sensitive to that starved dog, the poverty. You are just sensitive to yourself, about yourself. Therefore you say, I am superficial. Have you understood? So which is it? Why are you not aware of what is taking place around you? The squalor of your house, the untidiness of your house, the way you eat, the food, everything, why aren't you sensitive to all that?

Q: Sir, I am bothered about what I am going to be all the time, sir.

K: Yes, so you are all the time concerned about yourself and your future. Right? So your discontentment is a very short little affair. Isn't it? Because I am so concerned with the future, about my dresses, about my looks, about my - you know, about myself. So I am asking why are you superficial, when there is so much agony around you, so much misery, how can you possibly be superficial? That's one point.

When you say, it is not superficial but very deep - right - now what do you mean by that word 'deep''? Is it measurable? Please go into it carefully. Is it measurable? So the word 'depth' means it is possible to measure. Right? The very word implies a measurement. Now, wait, look. May I go into it a little bit?

Q: Go on.

K: I will, sir. The whole western world, from Greece, the whole western world said, measurement is absolutely necessary. That's why they have developed technology to its utmost extent - they will go on - but measurement was necessary. Right? You are getting this? Now the ancient Hindus - which you are not, so don't identify yourself with them - the ancient people said, measurement is very limited - I haven't read the books, but you can see it. So to find the immeasurable you must be free of measurement. Of course. Which means, you must be free of that capacity to compare, to measure, the more and so on. You understand what I am saying?

So there are these two approaches to life: measurement, the whole of the west is based on that, if you have gone into it, if you have discussed with people you will see that from Greece, which exploded over Europe and so America and so on, you will find that the principle of their outlook was measurement, to measure. And the Asiatic world said, measurement is not enough, one must go beyond the capacity to measure, because measurement is very limited. So you have these two. Now which is it you are thinking of when you say, deep? Are you interested in all this? I am sorry the sun is in your eyes, what am I to do? Would you like to come and sit here, sir, any of you?

So which is it when you say, I am deeply discontented, is it that you have compared, measured and therefore you use the word 'deeply; or you merely say, I am totally discontent, not using the word 'depth'? Does somebody follow all this?

Q: What is discontent?

K: That's what I want to know: are you totally discontent, or measurably discontent? That's good. Which is it?

Q: Totally.

K: No, no, be careful, sir. When you say, I am discontented with the world - the world being my house, my property, my wife, my children, my culture, my gods, outward, and therefore that is measurable, and also you see that you are that, you are the result of all that. Therefore are you saying, my discontent is comparative, I have compared? I wonder if you see all this. I have compared my discontent with other people's discontent and therefore I am measuring it? Or do you say - please listen - I am totally, completely discontent? You see the difference? So which is it?

Q: Total.

K: Be honest, you don't have to be dishonest with me because it doesn't matter. So are you totally or partially discontent?

Q: Partially.

K: Partially.

Q: Totally.

K: Totally. Wait. One at a time.

Q: It means that the centre is not there if you are totally discontent.

K: Yes, so you are totally discontent. Are you actually? Or is it just words, totally?

Q: We are in a trap.

K: Yes, you are in a trap. The trap of the rat race, the trap of what humanity is doing - wars, talk about peace, prepare for wars, armaments. Right? Talk about non-violence, go to temples, do everything to prepare for war. Right? All your money, your taxes, go into that. Don't you know all this? Of course. So what are you discontented with, and why are you discontent? You understand? You say, I am discontented totally - why?

Q: Because there is no transformation.

K: You are not answering my question, sir. Think it out. Why am I discontented. Is it because I want deep satisfaction? Is it because I have ideas what the world should be? Is it because I see that it's monstrous to have a poor country where there are rich countries? So why is it you are discontented?

Q: Unlimited wants.

K: Unlimited want. I am discontented because my want is so stupendous, wide, unlimited, and I am discontented.

Q: The means are limited.

K: Yes, sir, that's what it means. That's why I said at the beginning of the talk, of this discussion, are you going to the well with a little pitcher, or you have the well itself. You understand my question? No. You know when you go to a well if you have a little pot there's not much water. So how do you go to the well - with little minds? With wanting to change a little - I wish my husband was a little different, my wife a little bit better, nicer looking, not so stupidly dull, or this or that. With what energy, with what capacity, with what spread of your arms - how do you go to the well? You are doing that now. You understand? You are coming to the well. How are you coming to it? And also, why are you coming to it? Both are important: why you go to the well - you understand what I mean by 'well', I don't have to go into it. Why do you go to the well? What is the motive, what is the urgency, why do you want to go there? And if you are there can you drink enormously the waters, or you just slake your thirst? You understand my question? So which is it you are doing? Please, sirs, this applies to all of us, for god's sake, to all of us. Please find out.

Look: I want to meditate, so I go from one guru to another, to try to find out how to meditate, but my mind, my heart is like a little peanut. Right? Like a monkey nut, a groundnut. And I say, 'By Jove, with that little mind I am going to meditate'. Right? Your meditation then becomes the same size as the peanut. So in the same way, are you coming to the well with a little pot, or with a tremendous thirst?

Q: Have we all got the capacity to transform totally?

K: Sir, I am not talking of total transformation. I am talking about how you come to the well which will perhaps quench all your discontent. Wait, sir, I haven't finished. And you are asking a question, has each one of us the capacity. It's up to you. Right, sir, it's up to you. If your discontent is tremendous then you go to the well with a tremendous vessel. If your discontent is the size of a groundnut, peanut, then you go to the well with a little vessel. And I am afraid that's what you are doing. Not you, lady, but most of us.

Q: The desire to change, is that also not measurable?

K: Of course it is. So you have to find out what you mean by change. Change from the known to the unknown? Or change from one corner of the field to another corner of the field? You understand? So please be good enough to find out for yourself why you are discontent, and whether you go to the ends of the earth to find the water that will quench completely the whole discontent.

Isn't this discontent good, like a flaming that is burning? And if you smother it you just become mediocre, a bourgeois little entity. That's all. But you keep that flame burning, burning, burning, not be satisfied with anything - communism, socialism, Maoism, or Krishnamurti-ism, anything. Now what is it you are doing? This is very important to find out, is it not.

Q: It is importance to have the energy.

K: Yes, sir, the importance of energy. Is not energy part of this discontent. But if you are discontented with little things - bigger houses, little more, little less, bigger car, more money, more this, more that, that discontent, that energy is dissipated in little things. Right, sir? Are you doing that? When I ask you that question, are you doing it - you all become silent. Yes, sir?

Q: If one has discontent you reject everything.

K: You can't reject Krishnamurti-ism because he is talking about yourself. It means you reject yourself.

So please for your own sake, don't waste your life. Right? You waste your life when you are satisfied with little things. Right? Little car, bigger car, better house, better garden, better this and that. So don't waste your life. If you want to find out what meditation is, give your life to find out.

Q: Does it help to be always discussing, always hunting?

K: Hunting, or searching. It means both, sir.

Q: Is it useful to be always burning?

K: Is it useful - for whom, I don't know - to always be in a state of burning. What do you mean useful?

Q: Burning means wastage.

K: This is quibbling over words. Sir, may I ask a question of all of you? Forgive me if I ask you a question. Aren't you wasting your life? Aren't you? What are you going to do about it?

Q: That's is what we want from you, sir.

K: That is, I am becoming your guru. I refuse to be your guru. Followers destroy the gurus, and the gurus destroy the followers.

Q: How do we know if we are wasting our life?

K: Sir, that's what I am asking, sir, please find out. You have got another half an hour, ten minutes, or more, to find out whether you are not wasting your life. You have only this life - the other life, the future, may be, or may not be, but you have got only this life - thirty years, forty years, fifty years, or whatever it is, aren't you wasting it, which is such a precious thing?

Q: The concept of wastage presupposes some kind of goal.

K: Not in the least. Sir, I'll show it to you, what I mean by wasting, there is nothing presupposing a goal. Am I not wasting my life when I am following somebody, when I accept authority, except the authority of surgeons and so on? Am I not wasting my life by following somebody? Because when I follow somebody that somebody is created by me. No? So I am following myself in the name of the guru. Right? So isn't that a waste of time, this pretension to follow some ideal which you have projected and of which you are part? You are following yourself, your desires, your wantings, all the rest of it. So isn't that a waste of your life?

Q: What if the relationship between the disciple and the guru is of its very nature non-dual?

K: Oh, no, no. I don't want to go to some beastly guru, sir, we have gone beyond that, I hope.

Q: Gone beyond what?

K: I hope we have gone beyond the gurus and authorities.

Q: I thought you were talking about guru relationships.

K: No, no, I am not talking of dual relationship. I am only saying, aren't you wasting your life when you accept spiritual authority.

Q: (Inaudible)

K: Sir, please find out. We are talking about wasting your life, and the gentleman says when you use the word 'waste' it implies a motive, it implies an end. I am refuting that statement: I say it does not. I waste my life, sir, when I am bothered about my little corner of myself, my goodness - you follow - thinking about myself, myself, myself. Isn't that a waste of life? No? Yes. So are you wasting it? You see you become silent.

Q: You follow a spiritual authority for a particular reason.

K: I explained all that, sir. Sir, I don't want to go into that question now because we have dealt with it umpteen times, a thousand times. So that is not the point now being considered. We are considering whether we are wasting our life.

Q: (Inaudible)

K: First find out if you are wasting it.

Q: We have to have a goal or...

K: No, no, no, not goal.

Q: Can you please explain that?

K: I will, I will. You understand, sir, first of all our life is very short. Right?

Q: Life is not so short.

K: Good god, sir, you may live another ten years, fifty years, hundred years, but it is short. What is the matter! Your life is short, isn't it? Now it may be relatively short or a little bit longer, but it is still short. Are you aware of that?

Q: (Inaudible)

K: Need I go into that? No. I won't go into, you can discuss it with somebody else. Do we know we live during these years a very short life. Right? And it matters enormously how we spend that life. Right? Spend in the sense, whether we are sane, whether we have got a very good body and keep it healthy, otherwise you are finished. Where you have got a good clear capacity to think. And it implies a life that is not merely superficial. And also it implies that when you are talking about whole, is your life sacred. You understand? Is your life sacred? That's what I mean, your life is not sacred if you are not sane, reasoned, capacity to think clearly, objectively, not about yourself, yourself all the time, and to have a good body, good mind, good brain. And also that implies to love, to love, to have compassion. All that is implied when we say, your life is very short, are you wasting it.

So I am asking you, if I may, is your life sacred? Not the temples, those are all the inventions of thought, all your temples and your gods, your books. But I am asking you, is your life sacred. No, sir, please sir. Holy? That you are acting rightly under all circumstances? So if you are not, you are wasting your life. Right? That's why I said it is very important to find out whether your life, which is not your life, it is the life of humanity, because you are the representative of humanity because you suffer like the man who suffers in America, or in Russia, your anxiety is like the man in America, or Russia - he is full of sorrow, anxiety, pain. Right? He is like you. So you are actually the representative of humanity. Right? So if you really understand that, not intellectually but deeply, then I am asking, is your life sacred? It doesn't mean putting on robes and all that circus. Because if your life is sacred you affect the consciousness of mankind. You understand? Because you are the representative of all humanity. Your consciousness is the consciousness of all humanity, because all humanity, all human beings suffer, lonely, despair, hope, live in anxiety, in uncertainty, no security. You understand? This is happening right through the world, and you are part of that. Therefore if your life is changed radically, if you life is sacred, you affect the consciousness of man. You understand? So that means, your discontent have no depth, it is discontent, not with something but the flame of it. Then that energy, which is so tremendous if you don't run away from it, the energy of discontent, that energy will find the right action always.

Well, sir, where are we now at the end of an hour and a quarter, where are we? Go on, sirs, where are we?

Q: Do you want us to face reality even if it is evil. The problem is how to face it.

K: How to face...

Q: I think you want us to...

K: I don't want you to do anything. I don't want you to do anything. Right? It's your life. If you say, help me to understand this, we can then, but if you say, tell me what to do, then I become your guru, I become your authority - please listen - which I absolutely refuse.

Q: Can we together find a solution?

K: I am doing it now. We are doing it now. Are you aware, know, conscious that you are wasting your life? Don't say, relative, positive, so much - wasting. And I said, wasting implies that this discontent, are you smothered in it, are you running away from it, or try to find such deep satisfaction that discontent disappears. I consider that a waste of life, just to run away from discontent.

And also I said, is your mind sane, clear, objective, not concerned all the time about your little self. And also I said, if you are in constant battle with yourself, struggle with yourself, that's a waste of life because you are wasting energy. So find out if you want to, why you have conflict in yourself all the time. Why are you in conflict, sir? Aren't you in conflict, why? Didn't you hear what he said the other day at the talk? Facts, fact has no opposite. When you have the opposite then you are in conflict. Have you understood? That is, when I am angry the opposite is not to be angry, so there is a conflict. Right? So I only deal with fact, which is anger, not, 'not to be angry'. So I say, anger. That anger is me. I am not different from anger. Right?

So I observe - there is an observation of the fact of this reaction named as anger. Right? Are you following this? By observing without distortion that which you have named as anger undergoes fundamental transformation. Experiment, test it, don't agree with it. You know you are envious, don't you, that you are much nicer looking than I am, more intelligent than I am, envy. Now the opposite of that word 'envy' is what? Not to be envious. Which is the fact? Which is the fact? Envy, isn't it? Not, 'not to be envious'. So you look at the fact. Right? How you look at the fact is tremendously important. Whether you look at it with distortion, that is, wanting to go beyond it, or wanting to suppress it, or wanting to say, 'Why shouldn't I be envious?' All those are factors of distortion. Where there is distortion it means you are moving away from the fact. Right? So can you observe the fact of that reaction which you named as envy without the word, just to observe it? Then, as I was explaining, when you look at something through a microscope, if the observer is conditioned by his hypothesis, conditioned by his desire, then the object at which he is looking through the microscope, it doesn't do anything. Whereas if he looks through it without any distortion the thing which he is observing undergoes a change. You understand? So there is no conflict. Conflict exists only when you move away from fact. When I see myself in the mirror and say, I am ugly, that's a fact. But when I say, I want to be more beautiful, more this and more that, conflict begins. You understand. The observation of the fact removes completely conflict.

Q: I want to ask a question.

K: In relation to what we are talking about?

Q: Yes. Act if you have no choice, if you have a choice don't act.

K: No, no sir. Just a minute. Go into it. Sir, why do you choose? Choose between yellow cloth and white cloth, between blue cloth and red - you choose there naturally, that is inevitable. If you want a good car, you choose it. You choose, that's all right. But why do you psychologically choose at all? You understand my question? Why do you choose? Doesn't choice come when you are not clear? When I know the road to Madras, there is no need for choice, I just go. Where there is clarity there is no choice. It's only the confused mind that chooses. You won't accept all this. So before you choose be free of your confusion, then it's finished. Can you be free of your confusion? If you are not free then you are wasting your life. You understand? So can you be free of your confusion? What are you confused about? Whether to choose one politician or another, one group of politics, congress, this, that. Do you know the facts about these gentleman - politicians the world over are a strange people. Right? This is so obvious. So where do you choose? Do you go all round the world and say, 'I am going to marry the most beautiful girl' and so go round the world and choose. Come on, sirs, when you use the word 'choice' what do you mean by it? Choose between various gurus? One guru better than the other guru, one god better than the other god? So when there is choice it indicates a mind that is utterly confused. We think because we choose we are free, which is a fallacy. A free man doesn't choose, he is clear.

Well, sirs, if I may, it is five minutes to nine, if I may ask, not as a teacher in a school, what have you learnt this morning? You understand my question? What have you gathered? Will you be the same tomorrow? The same dull, stupid, traditional, repeating, repeating - will you be the same tomorrow?

Q: It will be the day after tomorrow.

K: Yes, sir very clever, the day after tomorrow. So I am asking, you have spend an hour and a half listening, what have you gathered which is yours, not mine?

Q: Understand life better.

K: Understand life better - your life? Your life? When you use 'better', when you use the word 'better', the better is the enemy of the good. Right? Either you are good or not good, either you flower in goodness, or you don't flower.

1978

Madras 1978

Madras 3rd Public Dialogue 3rd January 1978

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