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1982

Rishi Valley 1982

Rishi Valley 2nd Talk with Students 15th December 1982

Krishnamurti: What shall we talk about?

Student: Could we continue with where we left off last time?

K: What was that?

S: Deterioration.

K: I think we went into that. Has your mind stopped deteriorating? We have talked about, if I remember rightly, that conflict is the very nature of degeneration of the mind, of the brain. Conflict is measurement. We have talked about it. Conflict is pretending to be one thing and doing something else. Have you stopped all that?

S: How am I going to stop that?

K: Seeing that your brain is deteriorating, if there is conflict, so you stop conflict. It is as simple as that. We went into what contributes to the deteriorating factor of the brain, and we said measurement, conflict, comparison. Right? And comparison implies time, trying to become better than what is. Right? And all these gradations and implications of conflict, after having listened to it, see the reason of it, the causation of deterioration, has your brain - or you have understood it and so your brain is now becoming much more sensitive, alive, active. Have you?

S: I can see certain things without necessarily going into the...

K: Quite right, you can see certain things. What are they?

S: I can see I am in conflict but I can't...

K: Now, have you found out what is the cause of conflict?

S: The...

K: Just words or actual fact?

S: It is a fact.

K: Then what do you do with the fact. It is like having pain. It is a fact. You just tolerate the pain? Do you or do you not do something about it?

S: Pain is something quite relievable...

K: Can I put the problem differently? What is freedom? You all have freedom, that's why you have come here. More than you should have. You understand what I am saying? You have freedom.

S: In the past two talks I am able to see that I have a certain type of freedom, I have freedom in a particular sense.

K: I will explain to you what I mean by freedom. Is freedom to do with what I like?

S: Provided you take the responsibility.

K: Now, do freedom and responsibility go together? So, freedom, responsibility and discipline. Right? Discipline imposed by another, by society, by study of a certain subject which demands its own discipline. Now what do we mean by discipline, the word? Are you getting bored with this? A little bit.

S: No

K: Are you representing the whole gang up there?

S: I don't represent the whole gang, I am speaking for myself, sir.

K: Why don't you let the others speak?

S: I think discipline is self-control.

K: Discipline, he says, is self-control. You know the meaning of that word?

S: You should have power over yourself and know how to act towards others. K: Now, just a minute. Before you say that, do you know the meaning of that word `discipline', the meaning? What it means, the dictionary meaning. Do you know what it means?

S: The root is religion.

K: No, sorry. The root means, it comes from the word disciple. Disciple means one who learns. So the meaning of that word is to learn. Right? To learn. Now have you learnt about responsibility? Have you learnt what it means to be free? Have you?

S: I have.

K: You have. So find out first, let us talk about discipline. That is to learn, to learn about yourself, to learn about the environment around you, to learn Hindi, English, Sanskrit or learn yoga. Right? To learn. Do you learn to control yourself? That's what the boy said over there. He said discipline is to control yourself, right? What do you say?

S: (Inaudible)

K: I didn't say that. I said do you learn about yourself? Do you learn what control means, to learn what are the implications of controlling oneself?

S: Yes sir.

K: Don't be nervous, I am not going to throttle you.

S: When we try to control ourselves...

K: Have you understood what it means to control? What are you controlling? Anger?

S: A whole set of things.

K: Now get one set of things of the whole thing, like anger. Now, do you control anger?

S: I cannot control it but try not to show it.

K: You cannot control it but try not to show it. Why don't you show it? S: Because we may hurt others.

K: So in order not to hurt others, you don't show it, your anger. Is that it? Do you feel angry? We are learning about anger now. I am angry with you - I am not, but suppose I am angry with you and I won't show it, because it might hurt you, but I have the feeling. Haven't I? What do I do with that feeling?

S: Try to control it.

K: She said that old boy.

S: We keep it within ourselves.

K: That's what she said. You keep it in yourself. What happens when you keep it in yourself? You have a boil, you have a poison inside. What do you do? Keep it in yourself?

S: You get more angry, if you do that, if you keep it in yourself.

S: You might tell someone else but not the person you are angry with.

K: You are angry with someone else but not with the person you are angry with. (Laughter)

S: No, I said...

K: That's quite good too, isn't it?

S: If you tell someone else, not the person you are angry with, that you are angry with that person.

K: So, you tell somebody you are angry with somebody else. What's the point of that?

S: Just to comfort yourself.

K: This is getting rather childish, isn't it? (laughs). I am asking you: you learn a language, don't you, you learn mathematics, you learn geography. What do you mean by learning?

S: It is a sort of programming.

K: Don't use that word. I used that yesterday. Skip that word.

S: I gain knowledge.

K: What do you mean by gaining knowledge?

S: You become intelligent.

K: You become intelligent by gaining knowledge?

S: You come to know something new.

K: You come to know something new in your life. Now, what is that new thing you have learnt? New language? What do you mean by learning?

S: Get information.

K: You are telling me something and I am asking you something else. I am asking you if I may, what do you mean by learning? The word.

S: To enquire.

K: You would consider learning enquiry? Quite right. Now how do I enquire?

S: Yes.

K: Quite right. Now how do you enquire? Listen first, old girl. What do you mean by enquiry?

S: By asking each other it leads to enquiry.

K: So you ask me and I ask you. Is that enquiry?

S: Acquire knowledge.

K: Acquire knowledge by enquiry.

S: We get information about what we don't know. You ask questions to gain knowledge and information.

K: About something you don't know. But I am not asking that old boy. I am asking you if I may most politely, what do you mean by that word? Not enquire about the ants, or enquire about your grandmother, but I am asking you what that word means.

S: Like to know something which you don't know.

K: All right. I see you are not getting it.

S: Acquire someone else's knowledge.

S: To go into something.

K: That is right. Now, to enquire into why Madanapalle is so dirty. Right? That would be enquiry, wouldn't it? Do you enquire why you control? Do you enquire why you get angry? Why you are restless? Or say I am restless, tell me how to control myself? You understand the meaning now, I am asking. If you enquire, you begin to see the implications or the content, the significance of what it is to control. Right? Am I making this clear?

S: As I see, there is no learning when we control ourselves.

K: Have you asked who is the controller? I say I must control myself. But who is it says that I must control myself?

S: I am the person who is trying to control myself.

K: Who is yourself?

S: My mind.

K: Don't move to another series. Who is it who controls?

S: It is the brain.

K: No, you people haven't thought about it, don't play with words.

S: One part of our mind which thinks that whatever I am doing is not right tries to control.

K: Right. Which is that part of the mind, brain?

S: Conscience.

S: Our conscience is trying to control what we do.

K: What do you mean by the word conscience?

S: Part of our mind which is conscious of what we are doing while why we are doing deals with whether it is right or not.

K: How do you deal with this kind of topic? You are just repeating something. Now let us move from that. We said discipline. Right? Do you discipline yourself or all of you are in that big building, students, do you control yourselves there? Do you discipline yourselves to get up at exactly 6 o'clock in the morning, bathe, exercise, all the rest of it. Do you control, do you discipline yourselves or somebody tells you, you must get up at 6 o'clock. Sirs, answer that question? Come on, sirs, answer that question.

S: After some time, it becomes a matter of course.

K: Yes sir, it is a matter of course, but I am asking you are you disciplining yourself?

S: We discipline ourselves to a certain extent, and afterwards we try to discipline ourselves more and more to meet the situation.

K: I asked a question, sir, and you have not understood my question. Do you discipline yourself, learn about yourself? I explained the meaning of the word discipline. The word means to learn, not to control, to learn about yourself. Right? Right sir? That means to learn. Now do you learn why you should get up at 6 o'clock in the morning?

S: No.

K: No. So, somebody then disciplines you. He says you must get up at 6 o'clock in the morning and you think you are free human beings so you get angry, you resist. Right? Now, are you learning about it, learning which brings about discipline, are you studying it?

S: Learning entails discipline, doesn't it?

K: That's what I am saying. You don't have to discipline yourself. If I am learning, that very learning is bringing about a discipline. Do you understand? Are you doing that?

S: Sir, before I answer your question, I want to clarify myself about what is learning itself.

K: What is learning? Go on. I teach you Sanskrit, right? Or I teach you Hindi or English. What does that mean?

S: You are giving me something which you know and I don't know.

K: So if you don't know and I know, then you listen to me, right? Do you listen to me? Not to me, to the teacher who is teaching you mathematics, do you listen? Or you casually listen but your attention is on that, so how can you listen if you are partly looking out of the window and partly listening to what is being said? You cannot learn, can you? That is where conflict arises. Doesn't it? The teacher tells you, lease pay attention to what I am telling you, about mathematics, and you are looking out of the window watching that bird on the branch. So your attention is divided, isn't it? So you are not actually listening, right? So, when you learn to listen, what it means to listen. Will you learn about it? Now I will tell you what it is to listen. You listen to a story. Why?

S: Because it is interesting.

K: Because it is exciting, interesting, there is danger, there is amusement, there is thrill. All that excites you, and you listen. That means what? You only listen to something that is very exciting. Right? And nothing that is not exciting.

S: Everything in its own way is interesting and exciting.

K: Yes, all right. That sounds very nice. But will you listen to something in your class. Will you listen in your class to something that you are not interested in, not exciting?

S: (Inaudible)

K: Have you ever tried listening? Are you listening to me now?

S: Yes sir.

K: You are not.

S: I am not.

K: Quite right sir. At last somebody is honest. But why aren't you? Is it not interesting, is it not exciting?

S: I am quite sure it is interesting. I don't know why I am not able to listen to you.

K: Quite right. Not to me, do you listen to anybody? To your father, to your mother, to your grandmother, to your teacher, do you listen?

S: Partially sir.

K: Partially. Like a partially cooked carrot. They don't listen partially. If you are listening partially, you are not listening at all. What do you say sirs?

S: We only do half of what our parents say and the other half we leave it alone. (Laughter)

K: All right. But if a very attentive parent watches you, you will have to do the whole thing, won't you? You can't dodge your parent who is watching you all the time. So you hope sometimes he won't be looking at you. You do something else. Don't you?

S: We seem to obey and not to listen.

K: I give up!

S: Sir, what exactly is stopping us from listening?

K: First of all, sir, do you ever listen to anybody? Just answer that question. Right? You don't. Why? Just ask that question, find out the answer. Why don't you listen to somebody completely. All of you. Why don't you listen?

S: Because our attention is divided.

K: Why is your attention divided? Are you ever attentive completely? About anything? Or you are always partially attentive, partially awake, and the rest of the day partially awake and partially asleep.

S: Sometimes...

K: Are you awake now?

S: (Inaudible)

K: Now what does that mean?

S: Partially awake.

K: What do you mean by partially awake, partially asleep?

S: I mean we only listen to half of what others say, the other half... K:...you don't listen. Why?

S: You don't receive it.

K: Why don't you receive it?

S: You cannot listen because you are in no mood to listen. You are half asleep.

K: You are in no mood to listen. You are half asleep. Why?

S: Because you have not had enough sleep. (Laughter)

K: That is a very good answer. Why haven't you had enough sleep?

S: You may have lots of worries.

K: You may have lots of worries?

S: Sometimes.

K: Do you sleep all night and feel rested next morning?

S: Yes.

K: Yes sir. Then can you listen when you are completely rested?

S: Yes sir.

K: Are you rested now. Now sit up here. At last I have a victim. (Laughter) Are you completely awake now?

S: Yes.

K: So, will you listen to what I am saying? I am saying, discipline means to learn. Learn how to drive a car. Learn how to speak properly, how to walk properly, how to eat correctly, what you eat and so on. Right? That means you are learning how to walk properly. Does anybody teach you how to walk properly?

S: No.

K: Therefore how will you find out?

S: When you are a child.

K: No, answer my question. You don't know how to walk properly. Most people don't. How will you learn about it?

S: By looking at people.

K: That's right, by looking at people who know how to walk. Now when you look at people, will you give complete attention to it?

S: That is if you are interested in it.

K: I am asking you, old boy, to learn how to walk properly. It is nice, dignified. Now when you watch somebody walking properly, will you give your attention to that?

S: Yes sir.

K: Right. Will you give attention to eat correctly? Do it. Not say, yes sir, and not do it. Will you listen to your teacher who is teaching mathematics, completely? (No response) Because you are not interested in mathematics. Don't look at your teacher. Right. Are you listening to what I am saying now? Why?

S: I like it. It is interesting.

K: Which means what? Go into it.

S: It gives me more knowledge.

K: Go into it. Don't just stop there. You are interested, you want to learn, you like what I am saying and also what?

S: It is interesting.

K: Yes, you have said that.

S: It will help me a lot.

K: You are listening to me because, why?

S: Because you have more care for me.

K: Do you like me?

S: Yes.

K: When you like me, you listen.

S: Partially that way.

K: Partially that, partially you want to he helped, partially you want. So put it all together, will you listen to me? Now I am going to tell you what it means to learn. Most of us learn by accumulating a lot of knowledge. That's what you call learning. I learn mathematics. I learn geography. I learn how to walk. I learn how to speak properly. Which is I'm gathering a lot of information, stored up in the brain and then I use that to talk, to walk, to play and so on. This is one kind of learning. Is there another kind of learning?

S: Yes sir.

K: Don't answer yet.

S: There is.

K: What is it?

S: Learning through experience.

K: Which means what? Must you go through every kind of experience to learn?

S: No sir. We only go through the basic things, what is fundamental. Like you try to walk. Suppose I have not yet learned to walk. I fall once or twice, and suppose you have made a mistake in your step, you try to correct that. That is what is experience is.

K: All right, all right. Go on.

S: Suppose you are eating. You spill it on your dress.

K: So next time you don't. Most people learn through experience. The mathematics teacher, Mr Narayanan has learnt a great deal about mathematics. He is trying to tell you what he knows and you listen, put it in your brain and the brain says I have learnt mathematics up to a point. Which means what? You listen, you listen to his experience, to his knowledge, which becomes your knowledge. Right? And you call that learning. Agree to that? Then ask if there is another kind of learning which is not experience, not based on somebody else telling you. You understand what I am asking? Find out if there is another kind of learning.

S: By looking at things.

K: Looking at things. I have got two victims. You were here before, weren't you?

S: Yes.

K: I thought so. Now let us talk together. What did you say?

S: Sometimes I learn by looking at things.

K: Sometimes you learn by looking. Have you looked at a row of ants? Have you looked at it?

S: Sometimes I have.

K: No, don't say sometimes.

S: I have looked at the trees.

K: You have looked at trees. When you look at a tree, what are you looking at?

S: I look at it.

K: You look at it. You call that tamarind tree. Now look at it without the word. You understand what I am saying?

S: Yes.

K: Instead of saying that is a tamarind tree, and look and walk away. But if you don't use the words, will you look more closely?

S: Yes, so that I can know it.

K: No, you are going off to something else. I am asking you will you look at something without naming it? You have got a brother? No? You have got a sister? Will you look at her without calling her sister, having the image of a sister?

S: Yes.

K: Then do it.

S: I have done it.

K: You have done it. What happens there?

S: I seem to like her even more.

K: You seem to like her even more. Before, you did not like her?

S: No, I used to like her even before.

K: (Laughs) So, by not naming a thing, what happens? Don't answer, look at it carefully. Look at the yellow flowers. Don't name them. Just look at them. Right?

S: Yes.

K: Then what happens?

S: We come to know about it.

K: No.

S: You don't exactly think.

K: Did you hear what I said? You don't have to make a face. Look at something, look at your father, sister, your mother, without the word - right? - without the image you have about the father, just look at him. Look at me without the word, the name, without all that you have heard about me. Look at me that way, can you?

S: Yes sir.

K: Look. Then what happens?

S: All of a sudden, I get the name in the mind.

K: It is a serious thing I am asking, extraordinarily serious. If you learn this, it will alter your whole looking at things, you understand? S: Yes.

S: I look at the same thing.

K: No, I am asking you to look at the new moon which is going to come up today probably. Look at it, a very, very thin slice. Isn't it? Look at it without using the word, the moon, the new moon. Just look at it.

S: Perhaps I will be able to appreciate the moon more if I just look at it without naming it.

K: Yes. You are able to appreciate it more. You are able to see it much more clearly. Now will you do that with your father, mother and sister, with your teacher?

S: I can.

K: You can. Have you done it?

S: No.

K: Will you do? That is learning. You understand? Learning to look at somebody without the word, without the picture you have about him.

S: It is not quite easy sir, because the moment you learn, you memorize, you recollect.

K: That's right. I am your teacher. I scold you. All right? I scold you. You know what that means? You know what scolding is?

S: You shout at me.

K: Yes, if you know, then you have a picture of me scolding you. Don't you? Each time we meet, you have that picture. Right? So look at me without that picture, without that memory. Then what happens when you look at your teacher who has scolded you, and you do not bring that picture forward as the man who has scolded you? See what happens between you and the teacher.

S: Relationship becomes better because you can understand better.

K: You look much more closely, you look much more, you see what he is actually.

S: Yes.

K: So will you learn that, do that, not just one day, do it always, do that all your life.

S: I see that. I try to do that. I can't.

K: Don't try. Just do it. You understand? Look, do you know how to ride a bicycle? First two or three days, somebody helps you, after that you do it yourself. Now this morning I tried to help you to ride the bicycle. Right? Afterwards you have learnt. You don't say I will try and do it. S: As far as I am concerned, I can do it for just a moment, but after that the whole pattern of my old thinking comes up.

K: But isn't it important to learn how to look without the word? You may do it for a minute but it comes back. Isn't it important to learn something new? Then that something new is far more important than merely repeating the old thing. Then the important takes precedence over the old. Am I using big words?

S: Sir, friendship increases.

K: The friendship increases. Right. If you remember that I have scolded you and you forget it, we are greater friends. Isn't that so? Will you do it?

S: Our relationship is different.

K: That's right. If you do it, your teacher will also do it. You understand?

S: You must look at your teacher for many other purposes without the word. K: Why?

S: You try much more as to what he is saying, or what he wants.

K: That is right. Will you do it?

S: If I did it...

K: Not `if'. You see the difference? You say,if I did it, I will try, I must do it, then you are not doing it. Bit if you say, yes, I see the importance of that, I am doing it. You see the difference?

S: Sir, in that case, if I look at him without the word...

K: You understand what it means `without the word'?

S: Yes sir, you look at him as he was and not what he had done to you earlier and what you think he will do.

K: That's quite right. So, what happens them? Your relationship with the other is much more direct, isn't it? Will you learn that?

S: I am not very sure if I can do that. I will try. (Laughter)

S: But when you try not to, you are remembering it.

K: Of course, of course. So you go and try and do it. Not try, do it. S: Then you are looking and acting.

K: That's right. Looking and acting. That's right, looking is acting. Have we learnt something this morning? Have you? Will you do it?

S: Yes.

K: Good.

K: (To another student) Will you?

S: Yes.

K: Good. Don't say yes sir, and not do it. Then you become a hypocrite if you say I have understood it and not do it. Shall we sit quietly for a minute?

1982

Rishi Valley 1982

Rishi Valley 2nd Talk with Students 15th December 1982

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