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1983

Saanen 1983

Saanen 2nd Public Question & Answer Meeting 25th July 1983

There have been a lot of questions. "You say this and you say that." "I read your biography, and why do you say that?" "What is this?" And so on. Innumerable questions about all that kind of stuff. But we never apparently ask a direct question about ourselves. You are always quoting somebody or other. Or who is the greatest mahatma, avatar and all that kind of, you know, immature, thoughtless stuff. And also apparently we don't seem to be concerned really with ourselves, with our problems, with our jealousies, with our hatreds and calumny, and all the travail that goes on in our daily life. I wonder why? Personally I am not interested in what the Buddha or anybody said but I want to know the way I am living, why I am living this way, what are my peculiarities, prejudices, opinions and so on. We never seem to ask such questions. Why we cling to our prejudices, our conclusions and why we follow somebody or other. We never seem to, if we can most respectfully point out, we never seem to be aware of our own deeper anxieties, why our brains have become so shoddy, not clear, bright, alive, active, but always "Why do you say that" and "Why do you say the other thing". That is how we live.

So I would like, if one may, to ask you a question. Not you ask the speaker a question. I would like to ask you a question: What will make you change? What will make your mind, brain rather, extraordinarily active, alive, free so that you have an extraordinary view of life, the great complexity of life, not one's own life, the life of nature, the life of the earth, the trees, the ocean, the immense skies, the beauty of the world. And if one were to ask you that question, what would you say? Why are we all so - forgive me if I use that word - dull? Going along a particular line and never varying, moving away, never seeking real freedom - why? Is it fear? If it is fear then let us deal with it and be out, finished. But if you keep on asking, if one may point out, "Why do you say this?" "What do you mean by that?" - you know, then you are depending on somebody. So please, today and tomorrow, we have only two question meetings left, and could we ask ourselves, if you are listening, ask ourselves: Why we are what we are, after this millenia upon millenia of evolution, why are we violent, so disorderly in our life, why do we have this antagonism for another, why do we get hurt? You understand? The deeper issues of life. But apparently one is not interested in those things. So I will go on with the usual questions if I may.

1st QUESTION: Is there such a thing as right education?

If you have children, this is the question, is there such a thing as right education? Either a parent has put this question because he has many children and knowing what the world is, the extraordinary brutality and vulgarity and all the terrible things that are happening, what is their future? A parent would be tremendously concerned if he loved his children, which I doubt very much, if he really loved their children, if he asked such a question: what is right education? - and what is one to do with children who are already contaminated, if I can use that word, by other children, by society, by the friends they have, the terrible language children use already? You follow? All this and naturally a parent concerned not only with his own children, but with the children of the world, because those children are going to contaminate my son, my daughter. So this a question which we must very carefully enquire into. Why are we being educated? What does education mean? The ordinary meaning is to draw out - educare. To draw out. But that is just the dictionary meaning. Linguistically it means to help the child to grow, to understand, to comprehend the whole process of living. And he goes to school, there he is taught, he learns to memorize really. So he gradually builds up a whole structure of memories along a particular line, doctor, engineering, philosophy, psychology, physicist and so on. And the computers are taking the place of teachers. A computer can teach far better than an ordinary local teacher. On the computer you can have the top teachers in their special subject. So they can learn from the computers. And the computer is becoming more and more superior to the human brain. Perhaps you know something of it. I have already talked about it so we won't go into that.

And why should he, please just listen first, why should he carry all the encyclopaedic knowledge about one subject or the other and retain all that in his brain? Is that education? You understand, I am questioning. We can look up a book, an encyclopaedia and work from that. You follow? If one is a surgeon you have to naturally know a great deal of the human anatomy, you have to study and go into all that, it may take ten to fifteen years. And technologically to have extraordinary understanding of the whole world of the technique. And that is what we are cultivating more and more and more.

And also we are neglecting totally the whole psychological world, the whole world of the psyche - right? This is what is happening. One side you have an extraordinary development in technology - whether it is science, biochemistry or genetic engineering, or a top surgeon - right? You have that extraordinary field, highly cultivated more and more. And the other side of the human being, which is far more important - you understand? - this is far more important, that is neglected, denied, you say it is not important. You understand? The Communist world, the ideological Communist, not that I have read Lenin, Marx or any of that, but we have talked to a great many Communists - are you frightened of that? There are some friends of mine - you don't mind? They say what matters is not the psyche but the environment. Change the environment fundamentally and then you will change man, which can never take place. But they stick to that theory because Lenin had talked about it, Marx, you follow? So they hold to that.

So both in the Democratic world and the so-called Totalitarian world, and the religious world obviously, education means academic training, academic excellence. To be able to argue, to learn a job, to become a professor, and live in a world of your own in that particular discipline and so on. And the psyche, which always overcomes the outer, you understand? - you may have a marvellous government, rules, laws and so on, but ambition, the drive for power, position, all that overcomes the other - right? You have seen this happening right in front of our eyes in the Communist world. So what is it to be educated? You understand? As a parent - I am not a parent - but if I was a parent that would be my tremendous concern; conscription on the one side, two years or four years in the army - in America there is no conscription, or in England, nor in India because there are so many poor people who can join the army and go on with it. But what is one to do in a world like this? You understand my question?

So what is right education? Is it not both the cultivation of a brain that can function excellently in the world and also psychologically understand the whole meaning of existence, the self, the I, the psyche? You understand? Couldn't these two go together - like two well trained horses trotting along harmoniously together - you understand my question? And apparently one horse is highly developed, the other is still a baby, a foal. And right education seems to be not only academic training, because we have to have a job - you may have a job and work only for two hours if the computers become more and more important you will have more and more leisure. That is taking place already. And that leisure is going to be used, exploited by the entertaining structure, industry. More and more that is going to happen. Obviously you can see it is happening now. So how does one, apart from the academic affairs, how does one become a good human being - right? You are asking this question, I am not asking this question. I have no children but I meet hundreds of children all over the world. I go to various schools and so on. It is your children, not mine. You have to listen to this, find out, not just say some doctor tells me what to do, some psychologist says that I must treat my children this way and that way and so on - you know.

So how am I, having a few children, knowing they are going to be conditioned by other children, knowing that in a school they are going to be conditioned, the newspapers, the magazines, the books, the history books, my country opposed to your country, my kings are better than your kings - you know all that nonsense that goes on. And how am I, as a parent, to bring about a good mind, a good brain, a good human being? The word good has several meanings. It is an old fashioned word, even though it is old fashioned I think it is a good word. How is one to bring about a good human being? My children, I would like them to be good, not sentimental, not romantic, not just having a sloppy brain, what am I to do? You understand my question? You have children, haven't you? No? You mean to say you have no children? (Laughter) And isn't this your problem? First of all good means not only in action, correct action, not righteous action, correct action. See the difference between righteous action and correct? Precise action, talking precisely, clearly, communicating to another what he wants to say, not mumble, you follow, all the rest of it. And also good means whole. If I may use that well worn out word, holistic. I would like my children, daughter and son to have a view of the world as a whole. The view of humanity not from his narrow point of view but humanity. You understand? The whole of the human world. And also to have a good relationship with nature, not to destroy things, the birds, the animals, the whales - you understand? Not to destroy. And to have a great sense of beauty, not the appreciation of art but to have the feeling of beauty. And to have that great sense of affection, love, compassion. These are all just words. Now how am I as a parent and therefore a teacher - teacher is not merely in the school but also being a parent I am a teacher also - so how am I to help him to have this? You understand my question? Please answer this question: how are you, if you see this is the way to live, this is the way to act in relationship and so on, how are you going to bring this about in a student, in your child? If you are an example as a parent, an example, he will turn his back onto you - right? You understand? He won't listen to you. So not to be an example, that is if you smoke don't tell the child not to smoke because he will say, "Well you smoke, why shouldn't I?" And then the whole argument goes on. If you are an example at all - see the implications of being an example. You want him to conform, you want him to copy what you are and so you deny him freedom to work, think, act. Right? You understand all this? Is this getting too complicated?

And he is conditioned, not only by you, by the language you have used, the climate, the food, the social environment, the other boys, his grandmother says, "Look, believe in god", or "Don't believe in this new guru" - or whatever the nonsense the parents tell the child. So the child is being gradually conditioned, narrowed down. How am I as a parent to prevent that? You understand? Is it possible? Is it possible for me in talking with my son to realize I am conditioned, I realize also that he has been conditioned. So I tell him "Look, I am conditioned and you are being conditioned. Let us talk about it. Let us see if we can be free of it." - you understand? It is not "I am the parent, I know far more than you do", but rather in this relationship there is no superior and inferior - right? In this relationship I talk to him. I say, "I also am conditioned. I have been brought up by the Catholic, Protestant, Buddhist, whatever the nonsense is, and you are being conditioned. Let's see what it does in the world." I will go into it with him. I keep on at it, day after day, in different ways, not to bore him. But the pressure from the outside is much stronger - you understand all this? Tremendously strong and probably he will succumb to it, as most children do. There are very, very few exceptions. And I hope my son will be an exception, but I jolly well also know that he is not going to be.

So it is a constant observation, constant helping, guiding, not guiding - you follow? That can only happen if there is love between us. If he respects me and I respect him. Respect. So I am asking you: do you respect anybody? And if you don't what is the good of talking to a child, your son, to have respect? What does that word mean? The meaning is to look back. I won't go into the meaning of that word for the moment. Is respect part of love ? Or if there is love nothing else matters? You understand? In love there is generosity, there is sympathy, pity, but pity is not love, sympathy is not love - right? So have I love in my being when I talk of love to him? Or is it just a word? You understand what I am saying? Are you interested in this? Or you want to reach Nirvana? (Laughter) Don't you see, please, unless we lay the foundation in our life you can't go very far. You may sit endlessly in a certain posture, meditate. There used to be a man in India who meditated for twenty five years, day after day, day after day. He came to see us one day and you couldn't talk to him sanely about anything because he was still meditating. So do we love anything at all? Do you love your wife, and husband, or your girl-friend, or whatever it is? Please, do we? If you loved your children you would stop all wars - right? If every parent in the world loved their children, do you know what would happen naturally? You wouldn't allow anybody to kill him or him to kill others. You understand? But our governments all over the world are based on power, position, status, and therefore to protect all that, guns. You know all the rest, I don't have to go into that.

So right education seems to be - I am not saying this, it is for you to find out - right education seems to be not only to have an academic training so it will be excellent in that direction, but also to be a good whole human being, unfragmented, not broken up and contradictory, living in a battle with himself and with others. That requires a great deal of enquiry into the psyche, not according to Jung or Freud, or somebody including that of the speaker, but to watch one's own responses, one's own actions, one's own behaviour. And out of that comes an extraordinary sense of freedom. And freedom, that word has the root meaning in love. That is enough for that. Gosh one question takes a longtime doesn't it?

2nd QUESTION: Could we speak about the brain and the mind?

There is a lot of it. I will read it briefly twice and I hope you will understand a rather long question. I haven't read it before.

Could we speak about the brain and the mind? Thinking takes place materially in the brain cells. If thinking stops and there is perception without thought what happens in the material brain? You seem to say - (again, you seem to say) - that mind has its place outside the brain but where does the movement of pure perception take place if not somewhere in the brain? And how is it possible for mutation to take place in the brain cells if pure perception has no connection in the brain?

Have you understood the question? May I read it once more? It is a good question, so please listen to it. I am listening to it too.

Could we speak about the brain and the mind? Thinking takes place materially in the brain cells. That is, thinking is a material process. If thinking stops and there is perception without thought, what happens to the material brain? You seem to say that mind has its place outside the brain but where does the movement of pure perception take place if not somewhere in the brain? And how is it possible for mutation to take place in the brain cells if pure perception has no connection in the brain?

Right. Have you got the question? So first he wants, the questioner says, to differentiate, separate, distinguish and so on, between the mind and the brain. And then he asks if perception is purely outside the brain, which means thought is not the movement of perception. And he asks, if the perception takes place outside the brain, which is the thinking process, remembering process, then what happens to the brain cells themselves which are conditioned by the past? You follow? And will there be a mutation in the brain cells if perception is outside? Is this clear? Are you sure it is clear?

So let's begin with the brain and the mind. The brain is a material function. It is a muscle - right? Like the heart. And the brain cells contain all the memories. Please I am not a brain specialist. Nor have I studied the experts. But I have lived a long time now and I have watched a great deal, not only the reaction of others - what they say, what they think, what they want to tell me, but also I have watched how the brain reacts - you follow? And so on. I won't go into what my brain is, that is unimportant. I know you would like that (Laughter). So the brain has evolved through time - right? From the most single cell, taking years, millions and millions of years, until it reached the ape and go on another million years until it could stand and so ultimately the human brain. The human brain is contained within the shell, within the skull - right? It is there. But it can go beyond itself - right? You can sit here and think of your country, or your home, you are instantly there - right? In thought, not physically, you are here, but instantly your are in your home, or in a far away country. The brain has extraordinary capacity - right? Technologically, see what it has done, the most extraordinary things they are doing. If you have asked some of them, and fortunately or unfortunately I meet them very often, they tell me all about it.

So the brain has extraordinary capacity. That brain has been conditioned - right? - that is so - by the limitation of language, not the language itself but the limitation of language, you understand the difference? I won't go into that. It has been conditioned by the climate it lives in, by the food it eats, by the food, by the social environment, the society in which it lives, and that society has been created by the brain - you understand? So that society is not different from the activities of the brain. I hope you are following all this. And a thousand million years of experience - right? Millions of years of accumulated knowledge based on that experience, which is tradition. I am British, you are German. He is a Hindu, he is a black man, he is this, he is that - all the nationalistic division, which is tribal division - right? - and the religious conditioning - so the brain is conditioned. Right? And being conditioned it is limited. The brain has extraordinary capacity but it has been conditioned and therefore limited - right? It is not limited in the technological world, like computers and so on, but it is very, very limited with regard to the psyche. People have said, "Know yourself" - from the Greeks, from the ancient Hindus and so on. They study the psyche in another - you understand? But they never study the psyche of themselves. The psychologists, the philosophers, the experts, they never study themselves. They study the rats, the rabbits, the pigeons, the monkeys and so on and so on and so on, but they never say, "I am going to look at myself. I am ambitious, I am greedy, I am envious, I compete with my neighbour, with my other scientists, I want better... " - you follow? It is the same psyche that has existed for thousands of years, though technologically you are marvellous outside person. You understand? So inwardly we are very primitive - right?

So the brain is limited, primitive, in the world of the psyche. Now can that limitation be broken down? You understand my question? Can that limitation, which is the self, the ego, the me, the self-centred concern, can all that be wiped away? Which means the brain then is unconditioned - you understand what I am saying? Then it has no fear. Now most of us live in fear. Most of us are anxious, frightened of what is going to happen, frightened of death, you know, all the rest of it, a dozen things, anxious. Can all that be completely be wiped away and be fresh? You understand? So that the brain is free. Then its relationship to the mind is entirely different. The mind - I must here say that we have discussed this matter, not that you must accept it, the speaker has discussed this matter with several scientists, the top ones, not the local chaps who are government servants, and they won't go as far as the speaker has gone, they go theoretically - you understand? But actually. See the difference. That is, to see that one has no shadow of the self. And that is extraordinarily arduous, to see the me doesn't enter into any field. You understand what I am saying? No? No, sir, not you. The self hides in many ways, under every stone. The self can hide in compassion, going to India and looking after the poor people, because the self then is attached to some idea, some faith, to some conclusion, some belief, you understand? - which makes me compassionate because I love Jesus or Krishna, and I go up to heaven. The self has many, many masks - you understand? The mask of meditation, the mask of achieving the highest, the mask that I am enlightened. I know of which I speak of - you know. All this concern about humanity. that is another mask. So one has to be extraordinary, have a subtle mind - quick brain rather, not mind, to see where it is hiding. You understand this? It requires great attention, watching, watching, watching. You won't do all this. Probably you are all too lazy, or too old and say, "For god's sake, all this isn't worth it. Let me alone." But if one really wants to go into this very deeply one has to watch like a hawk every movement of thought, every movement of reaction, so the brain can be free from its conditioning. I am speaking, the speaker is speaking for himself, not for anybody else. He may be deceiving himself - right? He may be trying to pretend to be something or other - you understand? He may be, you don't know. So have a great deal of scepticism, doubt, question, not what others say, yourself.

So when there is no conditioning of the brain it no longer degenerates - right? As you get older and older - perhaps not you - but people generally they get older and older, their brain begins to wear out, they lose their memories, they behave in a most peculiar way, you know all that. Degeneration is not merely in America, jazz and vulgarity, degeneration takes place in the brain first. And when the brain is completely free of the self and therefore no longer conditioned, then we can ask - we are now going to ask, not the brain, then what is the mind?

The ancient Hindus, we have talked to some of the so-called learned people in India, they are learned but not the actual reality. They are learned about what other people have said. They have enquired into the mind - right? And they have posited various statements. But wiping all that out, not depending on somebody however ancient, however traditional, what is the mind? There is according to the Christian theory, Genesis, that man suddenly came into being at 4,500 BC - you know - which seems rather absurd because at 4,500 BC the ancient Egyptians invented the calendar. You can look it up if you want to and see what I am saying is correct. But that invention must have come after tremendous search, enquiry of generation after generation, so there was a connection between India, Jerusalem, Israel and Egypt at that time. I won't go into all that, I am not a historian.

So what is the mind? I say Genesis is disorder out of chaos, out of that came order - right? You know. You understand there are two things involved in it: disorder has its own order - right? Are we clear on this? Trains don't run punctually, - right? A day late, two hours late, if you are in the East perhaps the next day it will come, the engineer has gone to see his wife on the way, and talk to some friends - you know. Take it leisurely. But that very leisurely, slack way, has its order, it arrives tomorrow instead of today. But at least it arrives, that is an order - right? I don't know if you have ever watched, a cigarette smoke goes straight up - right? In a room where there is no draught, it goes straight up and after reaching a certain point it goes off. In that going off there is order. They are enquiring into this. It is not my business now. So we live in disorder - right? Our brain functions in disorder. Our brain is constantly in conflict therefore it is disorder. Such a brain cannot understand what the mind is? The mind can only be seen, not my mind, or your brain, or my brain, the mind, the mind that has created the universe, the mind that has created the cell, so that mind is pure energy and intelligence. You don't have to believe all this. So that mind, when the brain is free, that mind can have a relationship to the brain, but if the brain is conditioned it has no relationship. So intelligence is the essence of that mind, not the intelligence of thought, not the intelligence of disorder. But it is pure order, pure intelligence and therefore it is pure compassion. And that mind has a relationship with the brain when it is free. Right?

Now I must go on. I could go lots more into this but I won't. Are you getting tired or are you listening? Are you listening to yourself, or are you just listening to me? Are you doing both? Then are you watching your own reactions, how your brain works? That is, action, reaction, back and forth, back and forth, which means you are not listening. You are only listening when this action, reaction stops, just pure listening. You understand? Are you following this? Oh come on sirs, don't... Look sir, the sea is in constant movement - right? The tide is coming in, the tide going out. This is its action. And the human beings are also in this action - action, reaction, that reaction produces another reaction, that reaction in me produces another reaction and so back and forth. Therefore when there is that movement back and forth there is no quietness naturally. In that quietness you can hear - right? The truth or the falseness - not when you are back and forth, back and forth - right? At least see it intellectually, logically if there is constant movement you are not listening, how can you listen? But only when there is absolute silence you can listen - right? See the logic of it. And is it possible to stop this movement back and forth? I say it is possible, the speaker says it is possible when you have studied yourself, when you have gone into yourself very, very deeply. Understand yourself then you can say the movement has really stopped.

And the questioner asks: as the mind is outside the brain, the mind is not contained in the brain, but outside - we have discussed this with some scientists and they say yes, perhaps casually to please me, or theoretically they see but we are talking - the speaker is talking factually for himself. Right? He may have a hole in his head but... So, he says how can this perception, which takes place only when there is no activity of thought, then how does the brain cells, which are a material process, bring about a mutation? That is the question - right? You have heard the question? May I repeat it? No, I don't have to repeat the whole question.

Sir, look: keep it very simple. That is one of our difficulties: we never look at a complex thing very simply. Right? This is a very, very complex question but we must begin very simply to understand something very vast. So let's begin simply. Traditionally you have pursued a certain path - right? Religiously, economically, socially, morally and so on, a certain direction all your life. I have - suppose I have. You come along and say, look that way, the way you are going leads nowhere. It will bring you much more trouble, you will keep everlastingly killing each other, you will have tremendous economic difficulty - right? - and he gives you logical reasons, examples and so on. But you say, no sorry this is my way of doing things. And you keep going that way. Most people do - right? Most people, ninety nine per cent of the people keep going that way, including the gurus, including the philosophers, including the newly achieved enlightened people. And you come along and say, "Look, that is a dangerous path, don't go there. Turn and go in another direction entirely" - right? And you convince me, you show me the logic, the reason, the sanity of it and I turn and go in a totally different direction. What has taken place? You understand my question? I have been going in one direction all my life, you come along and say, "Don't go there, it is dangerous, it leads nowhere. You will have more troubles, more aches, more problems. Go in another direction, things will be entirely different." Right? And I accept your logic, your statements sanely, logically, you follow?, all that, and I move in another direction. What has happened to the brain? You understand? Keep it simple. Going in that direction, suddenly move in the other direction, the brain cells have themselves changed. You understand? I have broken the tradition. You follow this? You understand? It is as simple as that. But the tradition is so strong, it has all its roots in my present existence and you are asking me to do something which I rebel against, therefore I am not listening - you understand? But whereas I listen to find out what you are saying if it is true or false. I want to know the truth of the matter, not my wishes, my pleasures, but I want to know the truth of it, therefore being serious I listen with all my being and I see you are quite right. I have moved - right? In that movement there is a change in the brain cells. It is as simple as that. Have you got this? Oh, no, don't look so...!

Look sir, if I am a Catholic, or a devout Hindu, practising Catholic and so on, you come and tell me, "Look, don't be silly, all that is nonsense. They are just traditions, words, words, without much meaning, though the words have accumulated meaning." You understand? So you say, "Point out" and I see what you say is the truth, I move, I am free from that conditioning, therefore there is a change, a mutation in the brain. Look I have been brought up, we have all been brought up to live with fear - right? We are all brought up, not only fear of something, but fear - I won't go into it now what is the nature of fear. And you tell me it can end and instinctively I say, "Show it, let's go together, find out" Right? I want to find out if what you are saying is true or false, whether fear can really end. So I spend time, I discuss with you, I want to find out, learn, so my brain is active to find out, not to be told what to do. So the moment I begin to enquire, work, look, watch the whole movement of fear, then I accept it and say well, I like to live in fear, or move away from it. When you see that there is a change in the brains cells. It is so simple if you could only look at this thing very simply. There is a mutation - to make it a little more complex - in the very brain cells, not through any effort, not through the will, or through any motive, when there is perception. Perception is when there is observation without a movement of thought - right? When there is absolute silence of memory, which is time, which is thought. To look at something without the past. Do it sir. Look at the speaker without all the remembrance that you have accumulated about him, not his gestures, but watch him; or watch your father, your mother, your husband, wife, girl and so on, it doesn't matter what - watch without any past remembrances and hurts and guilt and all that coming into being. Just to watch. Then when you so watch without any prejudices, then there is freedom from that which has been.

I have got five more minutes. Shall I go on with the next question? I am sure you want me to go on. But you are not active in your... you should be tired.

3rd QUESTION: I once hurt someone very much. Why is the feeling of guilt such a deep tenuous one that endures in spite of every effort to be free of it?

Right? You have understood the question? Do you feel guilt? Don't most of you here have guilty consciences about something or other - no? Or are you all pure human beings? So there is guilt. What does that word mean to each one of us? Having, doing something one feels one shouldn't. A very simple level. Psychologically hurting another, and the other commits suicide and you feel my god, what a terrible thing I have done. Right? Or you have remorse, which is the same thing - right? You understand? We are talking about guilt - culpa, mea culpa.

People make you feel guilty, that is one of their tricks. Because then they can do what they like with you. We have been in that position very well, all of us. The father, the mother, the big bully or somebody, bullies you and you feel you have done something terrible and then they have you by the neck, blackmailing you. You understand all this? Don't you know all this? And why does one feel guilty? I understand why you make me feel guilty because you want power over me. Then you have me by the tail - right? So that is quite a different matter. But you have been unkind, you have done something to another, physically or psychologically, and he jumps over the bridge. And you feel my god, what have I done? What a terrible - I wish I hadn't done that - right? And you feel guilt. You understand that word, all of us? So I don't have to go into the word, the meaning of that word. Why? I have done everything I can. You want me to love you more and out of my heart, I will do everything, out of myself, not because you want me more - you understand? Are you following all this? It is your life sir not mine. I am your mother, father, whatever it is, I have done everything, I have loved you, taken care of you, all that on my part, but you want me to do more, exclusive. And I can't. I have given you my heart but you want the entire heart, but I would like a little bit of it for somebody else! And you get hurt - right? Then you jump, or commit suicide, do every kind of horror to hurt me. Then I feel guilty. These are cases. I am taking an example which is common. You do it very little or a great deal, but this blackmailing goes on.

So nationally they do it - you understand? You have hold of the whole government because you are going to fast - you know all the tricks they are playing. So why does one feel guilty, with all its anxieties, with its fears, with its kind of shrinking feeling - you understand? - Right? The feeling of my god, I wish I hadn't done that, I wish I had given more. But I have given the best of everything I have but you want something more but I can't. But you want me to feel guilty because I can't give more, and you make me feel more guilty by jumping in the lake, or taking a pill and committing suicide. So I am not going to be blackmailed - you understand? I have given everything possible. Or I don't want to give it - you understand? I don't want to feel guilty, not by your action. But you want me to feel guilty, then you have me. And I refuse to be put in that position - you understand? I won't be guilty. I mean I see the absurdity of it. Unless there has been a trick played on me, that is a different matter. I see very clearly that I have done everything a human being possibly can and you want more and I can't give more. And it is your affair if you want to kill yourself, I haven't done anything. You understand? Why can't we be sensible about all this?

I know - we know many, many people who have carried guilt all their life. It is like a wound never healing because they always remembering and that destroys their life. One has done everything possible, yielded, lied, given but the bully wants more. The responsibility is not yours but that of the bully - right? Finished. May I get up please?

1983

Saanen 1983

Saanen 2nd Public Question & Answer Meeting 25th July 1983

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