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Rishi Valley 1984

Rishi Valley 3rd Talk with Students 20th December 1984

K: What would you like to talk about?

S: Pride.

K: Pride. Are you proud?

S: Sometimes.

K: Sometimes. Why? What are you proud about?

S: Achieving something.

K: Achieving. What have you achieved? Or you are admiring people who have achieved, or do you want to achieve? Is that what you want to talk about - pride, achievement, success, money, position, power - is that what you all want? Probably you all do. Don't fool yourself, don't deceive yourself, you all want to have those things.

S: No, sir, we all want it because in this world we can't live without those things.

K: In these times, the boy says, we can't live without those things. How do you know?

S: Anyway you see a poor man...

K: You come out here!

S: Anywhere you see a poor man, or anything, sir, they'll argue if you don't give them anything, or if you try to make them a nice man, they won't give you any respect.

K: So what do you want to be?

S: Anything which we can have a respect for living a happy life, but not too much respect.

K: You are quite right - not too much respect but a fairly comfortable life, and a happy life. Is that it?

S: Yes.

K: Is that what you want?

S: Yes.

K: Then go after it.

S: Sir, but it is not so easy unless you try and achieve it.

K: Any other questions?

S: What is the difference between meditation and concentration?

K: Do you really want to talk about that, or is it a game, or just fun to talk about something I may be interested in, is that it? Do you really want to know what is meditation and concentration? All right, sir. If you really want to talk about that will you pay attention to what I am going to say?

S: Yes, sir.

K: Don't say, yes, sir, and fidget. Do you really want to talk about it? If you do it is a very, very serious subject. What do you think is concentration?

S: Something which you really want to think about, sir. Think about deeply, go into it deeply, think about it deeply.

K: Think about it deeply.

S: Think about it deeply.

K: Think about it deeply - what do you mean by that?

S: Something which we want to keep our minds on.

K: Come over here! Something you want to keep you mind on. Right? Have you tried it? You want to look at those flowers, or your book, or what your educator is saying. Have you ever looked very carefully, at those flowers, what the teacher is telling you, listen to him, and concentrate on a book, have you?

S: Sometimes.

K: Sometimes. When does that happen? When you like it - right?

S: Yes.

K: Now when you like something you put your attention, your thought, your energy in observing it. Right? And that is generally called concentration. That is, you concentrate on the book you are reading - right - or on something that you are looking very carefully at, those flowers, or what your friend, or your teacher is telling you. Right?

S: Yes.

K: Have you ever watched very carefully, concentrated on something for a long time? Not for a second or two but for a long time, have you done it?

S: I don't know, sir.

K: Try it now. Try now to listen very carefully to what somebody is saying to you, or look at those flowers for a long time, not allow any other thought to come in. That's what concentration means - focussing, giving all your attention to something that you are listening to, or reading a book, or watching something, a lizard going across the wall. Will you do it, are you doing it now?

S: Yes.

K: You are? Good! Now when that takes place what happens?

S: We understand it.

K: Not only you understand but what is happening? I'll explain to you presently, you think it out for yourself. Where do you come from?

S: Bangalore.

K: Bangalore, good. I have got two boys - now two girls?

Now he wants to know what is the difference between concentration and meditation. Right? You don't know the word meditation, do you, what it means, no. Nor do you know the meaning of the word concentration.

S: Now I do.

K: Now you know because I have pointed it out to you. So concentration means focussing your thought, your energy on something.

S: Sir...

K: Come over here! Move a bit so that we give her more room, she is a big girl. Right?

S: But isn't it difficult to concentrate on something without any thought in your mind?

K: That's it. Is it not difficult - listen to it carefully - is it not difficult to concentrate on something without thoughts coming in.

S: I think it is.

K: It is difficult, isn't it. So then what do you do?

S: We try and keep the other thoughts away.

K: Away. Then who keeps the - oh, I won't make it complicated for you. So you concentrate on a book and other thoughts come in. Right? Then what do you do?

S: You try to keep them away.

K: Yes, you try to push other thoughts away. Now what goes on in that process? I am concentrating on this, thoughts come in, then I try to push them away, and then thoughts come in. So I keep this, don't I. Right?

S: Yes.

K: Are you listening to what I am saying? If you are not interested don't bother.

S: I am thinking of an answer which you could give correctly.

K: I can't understand.

S: I am thinking of an answer which you could give correctly for it.

K: Look, sir, I was telling you when you concentrate on something other thoughts come in. Right? Then you try to push those thoughts away, and then you try to concentrate. So there is this going on all the time.

S: But why do those thoughts come in?

K: Wait, wait, I am coming to that presently. First see what is happening. You want to concentrate on something, then thoughts come in and then you push them out, again thoughts come in and again you push them out. So you really are not concentrating, are you? Because thoughts come in and disturb you. Now he asked, why do thoughts come in. Right?

S: Yes.

K: You tell me why thoughts come in. I will tell you.

S: I think it is because we think about those things. Because when we are doing something something else happens and you think about it.

K: Yes, that is, you are thinking about this, you are also thinking about something else. Is that it?

S: Yes.

K: Why does this happen?

S: Sir, if you are thinking, concentrating...

K: Come and sit here! Sorry, three boys and a girl.

S: Sir, as you try to concentrate, I keep thinking that I should not allow thoughts to come in and so they come in.

K: Yes, why do they come in?

S: Because you keep thinking about them.

K: But you are also thinking about this.

S: Because we are suppressing them.

K: That's right. You have got it. You have understood what you have said? Not quite. You are trying to concentrate on this, other thoughts come in, then you try to suppress thoughts, only the other thoughts except this. Right? So what is happening when you suppress? I suppress, I am uncomfortable, I have eaten bad food, and I am full, and I try to suppress my pain. Why do you do that, why do you have suppressions, why do you suppress?

S: Because we think it will be nicer, if you suppress they won't come again so you suppress it.

K: That's right. So he says, when you suppress them they come back again. So it is futile to suppress. Right? It would be wrong to suppress, futile to suppress. Then what will you do?

S: If you are really thinking about something very seriously, sir, there are no other thoughts.

K: But other thoughts come in, old boy.

S: But when you are really thinking without any other things why should they come in?

K: Now wouldn't you try to understand why thoughts are always moving back and forth? Right? Wouldn't you ask that question?

S: Because we suppress thoughts come in and we can't control them and we lose our concentration. So what should we do because, sir, is it possible that if we just leave it the other thoughts will go by themselves?

K: I haven't quite grasped it, have you?

S: If you don't do anything with the other thoughts, will they go away?

K: Would you come up here? Sit up here, don't be nervous. This is a very complex subject, isn't it? Most people, grown-up people, young people, are told from childhood - are you listening, listen carefully - from childhood you are told to concentrate. Right? You want to look out of the window and the teacher says, concentrate on your book. But you are really interested in watching that lizard on that wall. Right? And the teacher says, don't look, pay attention to the book. So from childhood you are interested in watching the lizard but the teacher says, do this.

S: Yes.

K: Now if I were your teacher I would say, let's both of us look at that lizard - you understand? Not try to force you to look at the book. You have understood what I am saying?

S: Yes, sir.

K: That is, you are watching that lizard - there is no lizard here! And your interest is in that lizard, not in the book. So I, as a teacher, would tell you, let both of us watch that lizard very, very carefully, see how it sticks to the wall, how many claws it has, see the head, see the eyes. Right? I would help you to watch much more that than the book.

S: Sir but I have got a question, sir.

K: What?

S: If the teacher - OK, in a class children get distracted at different times, like I might get distracted at a certain time and another person might get distracted at another time. And if the teacher tends to all our distractions, sir, how will she cover the portion?

K: I am going to show you. You are all so very clever here, aren't you? First of all I have no distractions. Don't call it distractions. What is important is that you watch, pay attention, listen, that's important. But there are no distractions. Don't use the word 'distraction'. Right? Now, wait a minute, I help you to watch that lizard, or I help you to watch that boy sitting over there being restless, fiddling with his fingers. Right? What I am helping you - not helping - what I am showing you is when you pay attention to something, whether it is right or wrong, then you can pay attention to the book. You have got it?

S: Yes, sir.

K: Are you sure?

S: Yes, sir.

K: That is, when you pay attention to that lizard you have learnt the art of attention. And I am going to help all the boys, twenty or fifteen boys with me to pay attention. And when there is attention there is no distraction.

S: Then why don't teachers do that sir? Suppose we get distracted in the class.

K: There is no distraction, don't call it distraction.

S: Suppose we want to watch something, then why don't the teachers help us to watch that thing?

K: Ask them. I am telling you - come over here, two girls. Come up here, that's better! All right? You are not shy?

S: No, sir.

K: That's better. You are asking why don't your teachers tell you all this. Right? Why don't they tell you?

S: Sir, I think they want to finish their particular whatever they wanted to teach us.

K: That's right. They want to get it over. They are bored, you are bored. Right? And they want to quickly finish what they have to say and get on to the next subject, or the next class. So they are bored with teaching. Right? Now find out from them why they are bored, why they want to finish quickly, why don't they help you to pay attention? You understand? If you pay attention to that lizard then you have learnt the art of attention. Right? Have you got it? Then you can pay attention to the book, then there is no distraction.

S: But...

K: Wait, wait, wait old boy. I haven't finished. If I were your teacher I would point out to you very carefully what attention is. Right? Attention is to pay complete energy, attention, to what you are watching. Right? And if you learn that you can learn how to pay attention to your book.

S: Yes, sir.

S: You might be interested in the lizard only, and you might not like studying, you won't be interested in your studies.

K: Somebody might not like to study. Then don't study.

S: Sir then...

K: Find out, sir, find out. Learn. Find out why you don't want to read books. Now you listen to me.

We have talked about concentration, that is, you are thinking, paying attention to something, then other thoughts come in, and you push those thoughts out. And so there is always this conflict - wanting to pay attention to that, thoughts come in, and so there is constant chattering of the brain - chattering, chattering, chattering. Right? Got it?

Now meditation, the word meditation, you know what that word is, you have heard about it?

S: Yes, sir.

K: Meditation in English means also to measure. Right? To measure. As in Sanskrit, if you ask Radhikaji, she will tell you, 'ma' is also to measure in Sanskrit. So meditation also means to measure. Now without measurement there is no technological advancement at all. Agree? See that? Do you see all this, what I am saying?

S: I didn't understand that word which you said.

K: You don't understand the word I am using?

S: No.

K: I am using to measure. You have a tape measure, haven't you? Meditation means also measurement.

S: I think he doesn't understand the word 'technology', technological.

K: Ah, you don't understand the word 'technology'. Technique - to do something, say for instance you want to build a car, and you must know all the parts, put them together, they must all work together. I have dismantled a car, put it all to pieces, and then put it all together hoping it will work. But it did work. Right? Learning about all the machinery, how it works, what are its components, what are its measurements, its metallic strength and so on, all that, learning about that is called technology, some of it.

Now meditation, concentration, for me, are two entirely different things.

S: Sir, quite often you concentrate without even trying to concentrate. Like you will be doing something, there is no need to concentrate, you will be concentrating.

K: You can do something - if you love something you don't have to concentrate. Have you understood that?

S: Yes, sir.

K: If you love something there is no concentration. Do you love something?

S: Quite a few things.

K: You love quite a few things. What are they?

S: Sir, I like reading books.

K: Flying kites?

S: Yes, sir. Flying kites.

K: Climbing mountains, climbing trees, chasing monkeys. What do you really love?

S: Collecting stamps.

K: No, just a minute. This is too complex a subject for little boys. Meditation means to be free of measurement. This is too difficult for you all.

S: Concentration is something which you force and do something, and meditation might be where you don't force anything.

K: That's right. Meditation can only take place when there is no effort, when there is no contradiction. You know contradiction, saying one thing, doing another thing. Right?

S: Sir, suppose you like reading, then you are really concentrating on it, isn't that meditation, where you don't know you are concentrating?

K: No, no. You are then trying to understand what the book is saying.

S: You don't know you are concentrating. Like he said you don't know you are concentrating but you are concentrating.

K: That is when you like something, when you like to read a good detective story, you enjoy it, don't you. This is too difficult for you. Don't bother about meditation and concentration. It is much too difficult. Right?

S: Yes.

K: A little bit. Now I would like to talk about something else. May I?

S: Yes, sir.

K: I have asked you what you would like to talk about, and then after asking you all these questions I would like to talk to you about something else. May I?

S: Yes, sir.

K: All of you?

A: Yes, sir.

K: Yes, sir!

Human beings, like you, have capacity, have some kind of hidden talent. Talent, you understand, that is to paint, to play the violin, to play the flute, or to be a very good human being. You, human beings have hidden talents. Right? And your society, your parents, everybody says, become a business man - or become a doctor, or become an engineer, or become Indian Administrative person, the Service. So your brain, you understand, what is inside the skull, is conditioned by your parents, or by the society in which you live. You understand?

S: Yes, sir.

K: So your own talent is destroyed by this pressure. You might be a great painter. Right? Or a great singer, or a marvellous botanist, horticulturist. Right? But your parents, your society, say, no, that is not good enough, you must become a really good businessman, or a good doctor, or I.A.S. So you destroy your own talent. And what is important is to have your own talent, then you are happy with it. You understand what I am saying?

S: Sir...

K: Listen to what I am saying. I am talking. And you are listening to me. That is one thing: human beings have essentially hidden a certain talent. Right? Not always to become a businessman, or a captain in the army, or a flyer. So you have to discover your own talent, and stick to that talent, whether you become poor, rich, successful.

S: Sir, but it you want to be a businessman and by the side of it you can also sing, or paint, or whatever.

K: Clever boys - you have trained these boys beautifully! They say you can become a businessman, or a General, or an army captain, and also paint. Do you follow how his brain is working. You are quite right. Then you will do neither thing properly, fully, happily.

S: Why, sir?

K: Because you are torn between the two.

S: No.

K: I know this, I know this. You understand? Wait a minute, I am talking for a while. So it is very difficult also to discover your own talent. And it might not lead you to success. It doesn't matter then. You understand? Then you don't mind not having much money because you have got something in yourself. Right?

S: Yes, sir.

K: So find out, all of you, find out your own talent, something of your own, not imposed by education, by your parents, by society, but find out something that you have for yourself.

S: But if our parents want us to do something.

K: I know your parents force you to become an engineer, force you to become something or other. But while you are young play the game and say, yes, I accept that, and find out for yourself.

S: But supposing something happens to you.

K: I know, just listen to what I am saying. Because I have got something more to say. Right?

S: Yes.

K: You don't mind?

S: No, sir.

K: And also you are going to enter into a world when you leave this marvellous valley, with all the rocks, and the shadows, and the trees, and the flowers, and the really peaceful campus, you are going to face a world that is terrible. Right? There is violence, kidnapping, shooting, bribing. The world is becoming more and more dangerous. Right? And the world is becoming corrupt, all over the world, not only in India, where it is quite blatant. You know what the word blatant means? Quite open. They say, give me something before I will do something else. There is corruption. Right? All over the world, not only here in this country, but in America, in France, in England - political corruption, social corruption, black market and so on. There is tremendous corruption all over the world. We say that corruption is bribing, passing money under the table, paying cash without giving a account. All that is called corruption. Right? But that is only a symptom. Do you know what symptom means?

S: Yes, sir, signs.

K: Do you know what symptom is? Symptom is I have eaten something, very heavy food, and I have got tummy ache. The tummy ache is the symptom. But the cause is my eating the wrong food. Got it?

S: Yes, sir.

K: So I want to go into the cause of corruption. We say corruption - I hope you are all listening because you are all going to face the world when you leave Rishi Valley.

S: Sir, supposing if you don't take the money he is giving, sir, he might do something worse. If you take the money...

K: If I give you money under the table you become corrupt.

S: Yes, sir.

K: And then you also become corrupt because you are accepting money. Right?

S: Yes, sir. But if I don't take the money he might do something.

K: I know, I know. If you don't take it he will hurt you. Just listen, understand, what is the cause of corruption. You understand? Corruption isn't merely passing money under the table, bribing, black market, but the cause is something entirely different. Right? I am going to go into that if you are interested.

Corruption begins with self interest. Do you understand this?

S: Yes, sir.

K: If I am interested in myself, in what I want, what I must be, if I am greedy, envious, harsh, brutal, cruel, there is corruption. You understand? Corruption begins in your heart, in your mind, not just giving money - that also is corruption but the real cause of corruption is inside you. Unless you find that out and change that you will be a corrupt human being. Do you understand what I am saying? Corruption is when you are angry, when you are jealous, when you hate people, when you are lazy, when you say, this is right, and I feel this is right, and stick to it. You understand what I am saying?

S: Sir, it seems like everything comes under selfishness.

K: Everything comes under selfishness. You are quite right. Corruption begins there. You understand, old boy?

S: Yes.

K: So don't be corrupt. It doesn't matter if you die for it.

S: Sir...

K: Wait, listen to me. You understand? We are all so frightened. You say, how will I live, what will I do if I am not corrupt when all the people around me are corrupt? You understand what I mean by corruption, not just the outward sign but the deep inward sense of corruption that human beings live with - selfish, thinking about themselves, wanting their success, envious - you understand? So corruption is inside, in your heart, in your brain. So if you understand that very carefully, and you are really serious, not cynical, most of those grown up boys who are going to leave have become cynical, they see what the world is, they say, well I have got to accept it. That is a form of cynicism. But if you understand very carefully from now that corruption is not merely passing money under the table, bribing - bribing whether it is two rupees or ten million dollars, it is still bribing. And being violent is part of what is called corruption, terror, all that. That is what is happening in the world. You are a human being growing up, don't be like them. Don't become angry, don't be envious, don't always seek success.

S: Sir, how can we stop all that? How can we stop being envious?

K: If you want to be envious be envious and see what happens. You understand? But if you don't want to be envious, don't be envious. Don't say, how do I stop it? If you see something dangerous, like a cobra, nobody tells you, you run. Right? So corruption inside is most dangerous. Right? So don't be corrupt. Begin there first, not out there. You understand? Will you do it? Don't promise. Don't ever promise unless you are absolutely going to carry it out. Right? But if you see how important it is in life because you are all growing up, growing into this terrible world, this insane world. You understand? There is no sanity in the political world, in the religious world - right - in the economic world, there is no sanity.

So please, I am just pointing out to you, whether you are grown up, or leaving this marvellous valley, or staying here for another two, four years, don't be corrupt, inside, don't seek vanity, proud, pride, don't say, I am superior to somebody else. You know you learn a great deal when there humility. You know the word humility? You learn a great deal if you are really humble. But if you are merely seeking success, money, money, money, power, position, status, you understand, then you are beginning with corruption. You might be poor, be poor, who cares. That's why it is important for you, for all of you, to find your own talent and stick to it even though it doesn't bring you success, fame, and all that, which is all nonsense anyhow because we are all going to die. You understand, old boy? While you live, live, not with all the rubbish that is going on.

S: Sir, why don't people realize this?

K: Because they don't think, they don't feel, they are thinking about themselves all the time, their job, their administration, their work. You understand? They are not interested in this. But if you are...

S: How do you stop being selfish?

K: How do you stop being selfish. Don't be selfish. Just listen. Don't ever ask anybody, how. You understand? Then they will tell you how, then you are lost. That is the biggest corruption.

S: You mean we must find out for ourselves.

K: Find out, enquire, use your brain, doubt, question. Don't merely accept. I am your teacher, suppose I am your teacher, I want to see that you have a very good brain. Right? To have a good brain means not to have conflict in yourself or with somebody else. I think all this is too much.

S: I wanted to ask you, sir: supposing you are not selfish and somebody does something to you?

K: If someone does harm to you, what will you do? Hit him back?

S: It depends on the depth of what he has done.

K: Yes, you have said it. By jove, you are quite... If he hurts you deeply what will you do? Have you asked what it means to be hurt? Go on think with me, think with me.

S: Sir, is it corruption again to be hurt?

K: Just listen. Suppose I hurt you very deeply - suppose, I don't want to hurt you - suppose I want to hurt you very deeply. Now you say, I am hurt. Now what do you mean by that? Use your brain.

S: Sir...

K: Don't repeat.

S: Physically?

K: Yes, not only physically but inside, he hurts you. He calls you a fool.

S: Sir, I think...

K: Just listen carefully. All of you listen carefully. He calls you a fool, and you get hurt. Right? Have you found out what gets hurt? Careful, careful!

S: If you think you aren't a fool and then someone comes along and tells you that you are a fool...

K: Look, somebody calls you a fool and somebody calls you a great man - they are both the same, aren't they. Do you understand what I am saying? Somebody calls me a fool, an idiot, and I get hurt - suppose. What gets hurt? Careful, think it out, don't reply quickly, think it out. Think it out.

S: Sir...

K: No, I won't listen. I said think it out, carefully think it out. I am asking you - I call you an idiot - I hope I am not saying that. And you get hurt. What do you mean, you getting hurt? What is you?

S: Your ego.

K: Think it out, old girl, think it out.

S: It is me, my ego.

K: What is you?

S: I am one...

K: Come over here, old boy. Sit here. Come on, don't waste time. I know you, so go on.

S: Sir, what is hurt is me, what I have build of myself.

K: What you have built of yourself, which means what?

S: Sir, what has been achieved, what I have achieved, what I have done.

K: What you have done, what you have achieved. Why are you all so accustomed to achievement? You all talk about achievement. Like your father, your mother, your grandmothers, they have achieved. Right? They have become successful you mean.

S: No, sir, what they have done to themselves.

K: Yes. Say for instance, I have been all over some of the world. Right? I have talked to various thousands of people, I have been to the United Nations, all kinds of things I have done. Right? Which means what? I have built an image, a picture about myself. Right? Picture about myself. You come along and say, you are an idiot - and I get hurt - suppose. What gets hurt?

S: Your feelings.

K: My feelings, my image.

S: The image of yourself.

K: Yes, that's right. The image of myself because I have travelled, I am a great man, I have written books, I have seen Mrs Gandhi. You follow? I have built an image about myself; that image gets hurt.

Now the next step, listen carefully. Can I live without image, any image?

S: Can you, sir?

K: Can I? Yes. I wouldn't otherwise talk about it. That is dishonesty to talk about something that you yourself are not living.

S: Sir, but...

K: Wait, wait, listen to what I am saying, old boy. So have you an image at this age? Of course, all of you have images. And those images get hurt. And all through life you will get hurt as long as you have those images.

S: Should you forget them, sir?

K: Leave them, don't have them. Somebody - many people have flattered me and many people have insulted me. I have no image, I can't get hurt, it doesn't matter. You understand?

S: Yes, sir.

K: Be like that. Be - that is where corruption begins.

S: Sir, but how do you get rid of your images?

K: How do you get rid of images. If you see they are dangerous you will get rid of them immediately.

S: Sir, if you get rid of them, what is left of you?

K: Nothing!

S: Then what are you?

K: Wait. Listen to what I said. Be nothing and then you live.

S: Sir, those might have images of you but we shouldn't have images.

K: Let the others have images, don't you have them.

S: Sir, sometimes we don't have images...

K: Not 'sometimes'. Are you talking seriously, or theoretically?

S: No, suppose a person can...

K; Why do you suppose?

S: If a person doesn't have an image isn't he likely to feel insecure?

K: Be insecure. Know you are insecure. Then find out what is security. But if you are always seeking security you don't know whether you are insecure. But first find out for yourself if you are insecure, what it means, physically, inwardly, and so on.

S: Whether you have an image or not you are insecure.

K: Whether you have an image or not, you are insecure. I am asking you, have you found out if you are insecure, or are you just talking?

S: Sir, I feel insecure about some things.

K: Wait. Find out what it means - what it means to be insecure. Either you are insecure physically - right - or economically, or insecure in public opinion - right - or insecure in money matters, or insecure in your relationships. Find out.

S: And then what?

K: When you learn where there is insecurity then you are secure. Get that, old boy.

S: Sir, do you have an image?

K: Listen to what I said.

S: Yes, sir.

K: You get it? When you find out for yourself, what is insecure, where you are insecure - with your family, with your father, with your mother, with your wife or husband, with god? You understand? Find out, learn about it. The moment you know and have learnt a great deal about insecurity, then you are out of it, then you are secure.

S: Sir, if you learn a great deal about insecurity, you don't know the full insecurity.

K: Oh yes you will. Sir, if you begin rightly - you understand - then what is right is at the beginning. This is too difficult.

S: Sir, are you saying, live with insecurity to find out what it is.

K: You are insecure, not live with insecurity. You just now said, I am insecure. Live with it, find out. Use your brain to find out. Don't become mechanical.

S: Sir, to get rid of insecurity we have to get rid of fear first, no?

K: Fear. Right? Now I am going to show you, you have to learn, not from me, learn. What is fear?

S: Fear is the thing which we think about.

S: The thing you don't know about.

K: Wait, sir. You don't listen to somebody else first, you are always ready with your own questions. He said - do you know what he said? You don't because you didn't listen, because your own question was more important; that is selfishness. Right? He said, fear, how is one to be free of fear. You meant that, didn't you. Right? So first listen to that question. He said, what is fear, how is one to be free of it? Now do you know you are afraid?

S: Yes, sir.

K: Yes, sir! Why?

S: I think it is because I think of something which makes me feel afraid.

K: Now just a minute you have said something tremendous. I don't know if you are aware of it. You have said something very true.

S: Then if we don't think of something...

K: That's it. You have learnt the first thing, that thinking brings fear. Right?

S: Yes, sir.

K: Right? So you have to find out what is thinking, not how to stop fear. You understand? You just now said very carefully, that thinking brings fear, which is true. I might die tomorrow and I am frightened. I might lose my job, I am frightened. Right? So thinking brings fear. Then what is thinking? Now go step by step to find out. What is thinking?

S: Sir, is it that to get rid of fear we have to get rid of thinking?

K: No. I said never get rid of anything because it will come back.

S: Sir, OK, you said if anything is dangerous you wipe it out by yourself.

K: Yes.

S: So you see that fear is dangerous...

K: No, first listen carefully. I said to you, fear, he said, fear exists, comes when you think about something. Right? Fear I might die, fear I might lose my job, fear of my father, fear of my teachers. So as long as you are thinking about the future - right - there is fear. Right? Now you have to find out what is thinking.

S: It might be selfishness.

K: Yes, wait, wait. I am asking you something, first listen, old boy. I am not trying to stop you. What is thinking? Carefully. Use your brain.

S: What the brain does.

K: No, use your brain to find out what is thinking.

S: Imagination, sir.

K: Imagination, go on.

S: Sir, what you have seen you record and you think about it.

K: That is good, you are beginning. You are recording, aren't you. That is - oh lord! I'll show you. Our brain, what is inside the skull is recording. You are recording mathematics. You are recording geography, history, you are recording. A tape is recording. This is recording, down there. You understand? I am talking, electrically it is connected to that machine, and that is recording on the tape. Our brain acts exactly like that. It is recording. Right? Mathematics, history, geography, your father - it has recorded your father. Right? Now, wait a minute. What do you mean by recording? Think it out, use your brain.

S: If you recall something back.

K: What do you mean recording? Isn't it necessary to record?

S: Yes.

K: Why?

S: Sir, to...

K: No, isn't it necessary to record? I hope the older boys are paying attention to all this because it is their life. So recording is necessary when you write a letter, when you drive a car. Right? When you have to pass an exam - unfortunately - when you record that you have a father in some place, and a mother. All that is recording, that is necessary. Now there is also another recording. I get hurt - you get it?

S: Yes, sir.

K: There are two kinds of recording: the recording of driving a car, writing a letter, becoming I.A.S., becoming an engineer. Listen carefully, old boy, you are following? And there is also another recording, me first, I am selfish, I want this, I want success. Right? So these two are recording all the time. Which is recording is memory, isn't it? Memory of your father, memory of your mathematics. Right? So recording means memory, which is repeating. Do you see this? When you learn mathematics you are recording, you are repeating, memorizing - like that tape. So you become mechanical. Like that tape is mechanical, it repeats, repeats, repeats - I am a Brahmin, I am a Brahmin, I am a Brahmin. I am a Hindu, I am a Hindu, I am against Communist, Communist, Communist. And so on. Our brains then become conditioned, limited, small. Right?

So thinking is part of memory. You can't have memory if you haven't met your father, if you haven't seen your father, your mother. So you have seen the father and your mother, and that is stored in the brain as memory, and also that is knowledge, and knowledge is based on experience - of course.

S: I am memorizing.

K: You are memory. You understand? You are memory, the whole of your being is memory - memory that you are atman, memory you have got a soul, memory there is light inside you, memory that there is god. It is all still memory. You listen carefully, find out if it is true what the speaker is saying, or it is a lie. You understand, find out. You are memory, without memory you are nothing - memory of your name, memory of your family, memory of mathematics, memory of going up that hill, memory of your friend. Right? So you are memory. Memory is something dead, gone.

S: Then how are we alive?

K: Because the organ, you have food, you have air, water.

S: Then how can we...

K: Find out sir, that is the great point. You understand? Find out what is truth. Memory is not truth.

S: Sir, what do you mean by truth?

K: You can't describe it. What is the flower, what is that flower. Look at it. You never ask when you are looking at that flower, what is it, how did it come, the beauty of it. Please learn something. Beauty is truth. You understand? Beauty is truth - the beauty of a good life - good life, not successful life.

Now sirs, it is ten to eleven, will you sit quietly for minute? Sit quietly. (Long pause) All rights, sirs, thank you.


Rishi Valley 1984

Rishi Valley 3rd Talk with Students 20th December 1984

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